It's killing me but..........

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Thanks RD, I shall in future do my L4 workouts below my FTP; I thought maybe around 200Watts.:D

Seriously though, I do think I'm on the verge of a breakthrough, however, I would like to prove it at the end of next week; not by doing x Watts for 1 hour
(not yet anyway), but if you remember I did 1x10 @ 275 watts back on the 19Oct, so a good indicator of progress would be if I were able to exceed that 10min figure.

And I hope to have a good ride Sunday thanks. TYson

I do think I'm on the verge of a breakthrough, however, I would like to prove it at the end of next week; not by doing x Watts for 1 hour
(not yet anyway), but if you remember I did 1x10 @ 275 watts back on the 19Oct, so a good indicator of progress would be if I were able to exceed that 10min figure.Yes, it would be a good sign of progress. And, if you can do 1x10 @ 275W, then maybe you can do 2x10 @ 275W, then maybe 3x10 @ 275W, and so on. There's no problem whatsoever in breaking up your L4s into 10min efforts. I do that all the time, especially when I'm trying to break through to a new level.

Yes, it would be a good sign of progress. And, if you can do 1x10 @ 275W, then maybe you can do 2x10 @ 275W, then maybe 3x10 @ 275W, and so on. There's no problem whatsoever in breaking up your L4s into 10min efforts. I do that all the time, especially when I'm trying to break through to a new level.
LOL Trust you to compound the torture. I anticipated it, though I wasn't sure in what way you would introduce more pain into my workout. :D

OK, 2x10 @ 275W it is.

Anyone know of a good shrink, I'm sure I'm non compos mentis!:eek:

Anyone know of a good shrink, I'm sure I'm non compos mentis!:eek:Yes, I understand there is a good one just past the finish line of the Death Ride.;)

This morning on the trainer in the gym did the last L4 before Sunday's race.Sounds like the taper is working. Be careful assuming that you're taking another FTP step, as the taper-bump may be short lived. Save those PB's for the race.

Good luck on your ride. :)

Yes, I understand there is a good one just past the finish line of the Death Ride.;)
Yeah I read about him, but I'm sure he will have his work cut out looking after you.:)

Why can't we just grow old gracefully?:(

[QUOTE=RapDaddyo]Well, that is one of the leading indicators of an increase in power. We don't have to actually ride our high-intensity efforts at 100% of our max power for a given duration. Yet, after awhile the efforts just feel easier. And, sometimes our HR (yes, HR) is a few beats lower that it was before (consistently, not just during one workout). Then, we know that we can bump it up a bit in the future. I think this is one of the hardest things for many to understand. Take L4 efforts, for example. Many think that they have to ride their L4s at 100%FTP in order to increase FTP. They figure, "If my FTP is 250W, how can I possibly increase FTP by riding L4s at less than 250W?" Well, surprise, you can in fact increase FTP by riding L4s at less than FTP. Magic!:D

Wow, this is fascinating, I don’t have a power meter and I do my 2x20mins L4’s on the road just under boiling point, which always hurts, and I never look forward to doing them, but I always do.

Are we saying we can back off a tad and get the same benefits? The weather here in Toronto will shortly dictate that I visit the garage and climb on the wind trainer (why does time stand still on these things), however I don’t think I could repeat those road workouts indoors with the same intensity, as they are too daunting/boring/painful, so to go a little easier might allow the mindset to accept them without too much cry babying.
Bill.

Sounds like the taper is working. Be careful assuming that you're taking another FTP step, as the taper-bump may be short lived. Save those PB's for the race.

Good luck on your ride. :)Thanks Frenchy, nothing like a bit of good old encouragement eh?

Actually, that's the second time in a week you've attempted to throw a negative spanner in my "wheels". Are you trying to slow down my onward march?
Too hot for you in the kitchen is it Frenchy?

Frenchy's answer.
No, I'm just advising caution - be careful of overtraining.
There you are Frenchy, saved you a post.:D

Wow, this is fascinating, I don’t have a power meter and I do my 2x20mins L4’s on the road just under boiling point, which always hurts, and I never look forward to doing them, but I always do.

Are we saying we can back off a tad and get the same benefits? The weather here in Toronto will shortly dictate that I visit the garage and climb on the wind trainer (why does time stand still on these things), however I don’t think I could repeat those road workouts indoors with the same intensity, as they are too daunting/boring/painful, so to go a little easier might allow the mindset to accept them without too much cry babying.
Bill.That is exactly what I am saying.:D This is one of the great misconceptions about high-intensity efforts (aka "intervals"). Many, many believe that they must ride intervals at 100% of their current max power in order to increase their power for a given duration. Not true. I almost never ride my efforts at 100% of my max power for that duration. In fact, I prefer to ride all but my L7 efforts at ~90% of my max power for that duration at that time. Throughout this thread you will see that I have advocated more volume at the expense of intensity so long as the intensity is within the bounaries of the (descriptive) schema.:D

[QUOTE=RapDaddyo]Well, that is one of the leading indicators of an increase in power. We don't have to actually ride our high-intensity efforts at 100% of our max power for a given duration. Yet, after awhile the efforts just feel easier. And, sometimes our HR (yes, HR) is a few beats lower that it was before (consistently, not just during one workout). Then, we know that we can bump it up a bit in the future. I think this is one of the hardest things for many to understand. Take L4 efforts, for example. Many think that they have to ride their L4s at 100%FTP in order to increase FTP. They figure, "If my FTP is 250W, how can I possibly increase FTP by riding L4s at less than 250W?" Well, surprise, you can in fact increase FTP by riding L4s at less than FTP. Magic!:D

Wow, this is fascinating, I don’t have a power meter and I do my 2x20mins L4’s on the road just under boiling point, which always hurts, and I never look forward to doing them, but I always do.

Are we saying we can back off a tad and get the same benefits? The weather here in Toronto will shortly dictate that I visit the garage and climb on the wind trainer (why does time stand still on these things), however I don’t think I could repeat those road workouts indoors with the same intensity, as they are too daunting/boring/painful, so to go a little easier might allow the mindset to accept them without too much cry babying.
Bill.
Since January, I've been doing most of my high intensity workouts in the gym, week after week, month after month. It takes me about an hour or so before boredom sets in; mind you I do have some distractions, notably in the female form which helps me to keep going, especially if they are on the next bike to me and watching my calorie meter.;)

If you are going to train indoors, why not rig up some music - fast techno or similar? When I had my iPod Shuffle I found it easier to keep going, but unfortunately blew 2 of them up with sweat.:(

Best of luck with your training anyway. TYSON

Thanks Frenchy, nothing like a bit of good old encouragement eh?
I said 'good luck.'

Actually, that's the second time in a week you've attempted to throw a negative spanner in my "wheels". Are you trying to slow down my onward march?
Too hot for you in the kitchen is it Frenchy?
Tyson, I don't think anything I could say would affect your progress on the bike. I'm pretty sure a taper period is designed to produce a short-lived bump in performance, and I didn't intend anything devious by mentioning the probability that that's what you're seeing. Performance is performance, and if you're setting PBs during a big race then congrats on training and tapering right.

Again, good luck.

...There's no problem whatsoever in breaking up your L4s into 10min efforts. I do that all the time, especially when I'm trying to break through to a new level.Hmmmm, just a philosophical question, if you're trying to break into a new level and it requires breaking your L4 workouts down to finish them, are you still doing L4 work? Seems like L4 should be sustainable for an hour in race situations, if you've got to drop to 10 minute intervals to complete them it sounds like you're using VO2 max work to bring up your L4.

For instance based on the recent posts Tyson sounds like his FTP is near 250 Watts, based on Dr. Coggan's levels 275W would be solidly into VO2max training.

I'm not arguing your methods, your coaching on this thread coupled with Tyson's (I like Sly...) hard work has been really impressive, just wondering where the line is between hard short L4 work and L5 work.

Thanks for this thread, a real time case study like this is fascinating and motivational. As I read the 90 some odd pages I feel myself pulling for Sly. Kinda like a fitness soap opera.....

-Dave

I said 'good luck.'


Tyson, I don't think anything I could say would affect your progress on the bike. I'm pretty sure a taper period is designed to produce a short-lived bump in performance, and I didn't intend anything devious by mentioning the probability that that's what you're seeing. Performance is performance, and if you're setting PBs during a big race then congrats on training and tapering right.

Again, good luck.
Sorry Frenchy, I wasn't having a go at you - I forgot the smileys. It was tongue in cheek, because as you know I ignore what people tell me if I think they don't really know me (and how could they sitting at a computer 12000 miles away). As RD says, I'm "a feely feely guy" and after donkeys years of competitive sport, I know when I'm pushing the limit.

However, I do appreciate that you could be right about the tapering effect, but I've had 2 and 3 days off before and on my return to the bike I haven't noted any real change. By the end of next week we shall know one way or the other.;) TYSON

Hmmmm, just a philosophical question, if you're trying to break into a new level and it requires breaking your L4 workouts down to finish them, are you still doing L4 work?Sure you are. In fact, 10mins and 91%FTP are the floor values for L4. Naturally, at the lower end of duration one should be able to ride at the upper end of intensity. And if Tyson is barely able to complete 2x10 @ 275W, there's no way his FTP is 275W. But, at the same time if one is able to complete 2x20 @ 275W it doesn't mean one's FTP is 275W. Dropping the duration to 10min and riding at near one's MP for 10mins serves the psychological purpose of learning to relax at that intensity. That's a big deal in increasing one's FTP, learning to relax at the higher intensity. Initially, a sort of panic sets in and we think, "There's no way I can sustain this intensity." Doing 10min intervals helps us overcome that panic feeling.

Seems like L4 should be sustainable for an hour in race situations, if you've got to drop to 10 minute intervals to complete them it sounds like you're using VO2 max work to bring up your L4.Technically, you're defining FTP. The L4 level is broader than that, from 91%FTP to 105%FTP. If Tyson's FTP is 250W, then the upper end of L4 is 263W and 275W is above that upper boundary, but not by much. VO2MAX work would be closer to 120%FTP, or 300W. There's a huge difference between 275W and 300W, so 275W is more like L4 than L5 even though it is technically above the upper boundary of L4 (remember, these are sort of fuzzy boundaries).

I feel myself pulling for Sly.Aren't we all. Tyson's a lucky fella to have so much support. I know that on Sunday (Saturday my time) I'll be on my ride thinking, "Go Tyson!":D

Are we saying we can back off a tad and get the same benefits?Yes, absolutely as RD says - if it means you actually do more riding at these levels as a result of backing off a tad, you'll probably gain much greater benefit overall.

Sometimes it's hard to explain how riding slower can make you faster....

Indeed sufficient L2/3 riding will also impact positively on FTP. It's the degree of impact that we are talking about. Like I said in an earlier post, I've hardly done any specific L4 interval work in last 3 months yet have lifted FTP by 45 Watts.

But there comes a time when you need to break through as well.

Hmmmm, just a philosophical question, if you're trying to break into a new level and it requires breaking your L4 workouts down to finish them, are you still doing L4 work?The same goes for supra FTP efforts - they still have a positive impact on FTP.

All these "levels" are a continuum - we don't suddenly stop working on endurance and then start working on FTP because of the intensity at which we ride. Nor do we stop gaining FTP benefits when we are working on VO2 Max. It's just the degree of impact that training at various levels has.

L4 work is however a very efficient means of improving FTP but it is not the only means.

Have a look at table 2 in this doc and you'll see what I mean:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

... All these "levels" are a continuum - we don't suddenly stop working on endurance and then start working on FTP because of the intensity at which we ride. Nor do we stop gaining FTP benefits when we are working on VO2 Max. It's just the degree of impact that training at various levels has....I fully agree, the question was one of semantics, I don't question whether adaptation comes from working above or below the level that focuses on a particular energy production physiology. Even back in the day when LSD was king we'd improve our 40km TT times signifigantly with long hours in the saddle. I actually pulled my 250W vs. 275W example from the converter in my Cycling Peaks software, so I don't question the positive adaptation, just the terminology of talking about short supra L4 workouts as L4.

As RDO points out we don't really know where Tyson's FTP sits, so I suppose if the 250W efforts are beginning to feel easy at 2x20 then the 275W efforts may not be as deep into L5 as I estimated.

Have a great ride this weekend Tyson.

I fully agree, the question was one of semantics, I don't question whether adaptation comes from working above or below the level that focuses on a particular energy production physiology. Even back in the day when LSD was king we'd improve our 40km TT times signifigantly with long hours in the saddle. I actually pulled my 250W vs. 275W example from the converter in my Cycling Peaks software, so I don't question the positive adaptation, just the terminology of talking about short supra L4 workouts as L4.

As RDO points out we don't really know where Tyson's FTP sits, so I suppose if the 250W efforts are beginning to feel easy at 2x20 then the 275W efforts may not be as deep into L5 as I estimated.

Have a great ride this weekend Tyson.Thanks Dave, but I'm not sure I'm exactly suited to the terrain. It's beginning to sound worse than my ride back in June. I was talking to my English cycling buddy who has done the first climb before, a mere 950 feet (290M) one third the height of 2 of the other climbs, and he says when he did it, it took him 35 minutes to the top and when he arrived there he felt a bit disorientated. Granted he wasn't as fit as he is now, but still.:(

Sorry Frenchy, I wasn't having a go at you - I forgot the smileys. It was tongue in cheek, because as you know I ignore what people tell me if I think they don't really know me (and how could they sitting at a computer 12000 miles away). As RD says, I'm "a feely feely guy" and after donkeys years of competitive sport, I know when I'm pushing the limit.
That's what I thought, so I was wondering how you'd turned into such a sensitive sap all of the sudden. ;):D

Honestly, I had no way of knowing how far into your taper you were and was just mentioning it as another possibility since the FT breakthrough possibility had already been discussed.

However, I do appreciate that you could be right about the tapering effect, but I've had 2 and 3 days off before and on my return to the bike I haven't noted any real change. By the end of next week we shall know one way or the other.;) TYSON
Well, there's a really easy way to know before then. Just ask RD to take all your workout descriptions from the past 6-8 months, run them through his .wko maker application, import them to his WKO+, run the Performance Manager Chart, and have him tell you what your CTL and TSB are this week. Simple. :D

Reading a study in the journal "Sports Medicine"

the effect of interval training on trained cyclists laboratory simulated 40km time-trial performance and power output was examined by Lindsayand Stepto employing similar protocols of 6–8 intervals of 4–5 minutes separated by 1–1.5 minutes at an intensity of 80% to 85% of Wpeak for 3–4 weeks. Given the relatively short duration of these training protocols, these investigators produced rather impressive increases in Wpeak of ~3% and ~5% and improved 40km time-trial velocity by ~3%and 2.8%.

Interestingly, these authors found that 30-second work bouts at 175% of peak power followed by 4.5 minutes of recovery and repeated 12 times was nearly as effective for improving 40km time-trial performance (+2.4% estimated ) as the 4-minute interval.

so it looks like there is data to suggest that 30 second intervals and 4-5 minute intervals also play a surprisingly significant role in 1hr TT performance. This must surely mean that FTP would be improved.

so I am thinking a balanced mix of 30 second, 5 minute and 20 minute intervals at the relevant intensities would all help increase FTP, and not just exclusively concentrating on Level 4.

Reading a study in the journal "Sports Medicine"

the effect of interval training on trained cyclists laboratory simulated 40km time-trial performance and power output was examined by Lindsayand Stepto employing similar protocols of 6–8 intervals of 4–5 minutes separated by 1–1.5 minutes at an intensity of 80% to 85% of Wpeak for 3–4 weeks. Given the relatively short duration of these training protocols, these investigators produced rather impressive increases in Wpeak of ~3% and ~5% and improved 40km time-trial velocity by ~3%and 2.8%.

Interestingly, these authors found that 30-second work bouts at 175% of peak power followed by 4.5 minutes of recovery and repeated 12 times was nearly as effective for improving 40km time-trial performance (+2.4% estimated ) as the 4-minute interval.

so it looks like there is data to suggest that 30 second intervals and 4-5 minute intervals also play a surprisingly significant role in 1hr TT performance. This must surely mean that FTP would be improved.

so I am thinking a balanced mix of 30 second, 5 minute and 20 minute intervals at the relevant intensities would all help increase FTP, and not just exclusively concentrating on Level 4.Who's the first author and what is the year of publication?
I can't find it and want to read the full article.

I did find two nice articles written by Faria EW in 2005. Called:
The science of cycling: physiology and training - part 1.
The science of cycling: physiology and training - part 2.