It's killing me but..........

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Well shoot! If girls can chime in then why not us kids (36 y/o)? :confused: :D

Wiredued, IIRC you are using a KK with power computer, rather than a PM. Andy Coggan has developed a great tool to help determine the amount of stress that each workout is placing on the body, and therefore how much recovery is needed. It's called TSS, or Training Stress Score, and it's calculated from the intensity of the workout and the duration. It's discussed in his book and his paper, but basically the body is able to recover from ~100-150 TSS/day on a regular basis. I am attaching a short Excel spreadsheet (change the file extension from .doc to .xls when downloading) that will easily estimate the NP and TSS of an interval workout.

To your question: A 2x20 workout at 91% FTP results in 66 TSS pts (incl. short w/u and c/d). As you can see, that's *way* below what most people are capable of recovering from in 24 hr. 2x20 at 100% FTP is 79 TSS pts - still pretty doable. Even 3x20 at 100% FTP is 116 TSS pts - now we're talking. I know it may seem pretty stressful during the workout, but by the next day you should be capable of going at it again if you wanted. I experimented with it last year and found that as long as I stayed below ~125 TSS that I didn't have any performance limitations the next day. That doesn't mean I necessarily felt 'fresh', but my body was still capable of repeating the workout. I had no trouble with 3x20 @ FTP or 3x30 at .95 FTP on 3 consecutive days last winter. Give it a try and you may find that your limit is 100, 90, or even 80 TSS, but at least you'll have an objective measurement to go by.
Thank you you have the wisdom of a 40 year old maybe even 42 I'm sorry I excluded you I didn't realize you were just a puppy.:D

I am attaching a short Excel spreadsheet (change the file extension from .doc to .xls when downloading) that will easily estimate the NP and TSS of an interval workout.You can take it one step further and create PT CSV files for import into WKO+ with a small console app that I built a few months ago (MakeWKO). There is a new (and improved) version, but the link to the server seems to be broken at the moment. As soon as the link gets fixed, I'll post it here. Then you can take advantage of Performance Manager in CP.

P.S., the link now works. You can download the MakeWKO application from here (do not click on the following link; copy and paste the following into your browser) ftp://lanmonaerial.1:54fed1@lanmonaerial.com (ftp://lanmonaerial.com/)

Thanks for the help I think every other day at 3x20 might best fit my schedule and consecutive day phobia so I'll try that starting tomorrow. I'll let you get back to the Tyson vs RD pre race hype.:)

I'll let you get back to the Tyson vs RD pre race hype.:)Tell us how those 3x20s go. There's room for a third horse in this race... :p

Did an insane ride today in preparation for the mountain Fondo on the 5th Nov.

Went out intending to do my 86km (53miles) course, but I chickened out half way round and opted to do my 57km course instead. After a while I said this is not good enough and added a fairly easy 9km loop with only 1 short climb.

On my way up the last 6% 4km hill, again I thought this is not good enough so did a sharp right turn straight up a 3km 12-13% climb I haven't done for years.
Used to do it on my old steel bike when I went out on my one and only training session every week.

My young training buddy hates this hill and avoids it like the plague. Didn't find it too tough. Anyway after 50km plus I arrived back at the base of the famous 15% which earlier this year RD said "What are you doing climbing a 15%?":(
Of course I'd already been up it once today, and as I approached the lights at the bottom I thought, shall I shant I? Anyway, couldn't resist the challenge and Fosdicks dog hared up it again. Actually it wasn't that bad, I'm sure I could have done it again.

Then of course I had to climb the 4km hill again on the way home, however, I must have had my mind on other things - didn't even notice it till suddenly I was at the top.

Finished off doing 84km, 3km less than intended but dare I say tougher.

I think I'm ready for the mountains of Gifu!;)

Slept all afternoon on the sofa, and am thinking about going out on the bike tomorrow. However, it's easy to plan lying on the sofa.

I still can't believe I listened to those guys who told me that over the age of 50 you need to train no more than every other day.

And finally to Bullgod (see image thread) I would like to see some young guys attempt the ride I did today. To all you older guys out there who might be reading this thread, ignore people like BG - get out there and stick it to them.

If you take the advice given by RD and others here. you'll be climbing like a 20 year old, (and better than many of them) and you'll develop a spring in your step you thought you'd lost a long time ago.

On the 5th November I promise you I shall leave many young bucks, carbon frames and beautiful calves in my wake. And I don't mean by just a few minutes. I shall be changed and on my way home when some of them will still be struggling in.:D

To all you older guys out there who might be reading this thread, ignore people like BG - get out there and stick it to them.What a great post. Your post stoked me up to stick it to them today on my 65 mile ride (4000' of climbing) following my 80 mile ride yesterday (6000' of climbing and 25mph headwinds on the outbound leg). Any thoughts I might have had about taking it easy have been shattered. Well done! Yes, you're ready.:D

You're an animal RD - definitely! ;)

I'm sure you posted that mileage to make my 84km look wussy, the only thing I'll say in my defence is that my ride included 16km plus of climbing including some seriously steep climbs.:D

You're an animal RD - definitely! ;)

I'm sure you posted that mileage to make my 84km look wussy, the only thing I'll say in my defence is that my ride included 16km plus of climbing including some seriously steep climbs.:DI'm just trying to get fit for the Mt. Charleston Showdown!:D

I'm just trying to get fit for the Mt. Charleston Showdown!:D
Yes, psychologically no doubt!:p

RD, I don't think you are going to like this.:(

After, Gifu I intend to have 3-5 days complete rest and then no cycling (or perhaps only one day a week) until after January the 7th.

Why? I hear you cry.

My wife and 8 year old daughter have entered (as they did last year) our city 3km road running race. There is also a 10km race for adults which I've decided to enter. This will be my first run in over 15 years.

The other day after a hard workout on the gym bike, I tried out the treadmill and within secs took the machine to its max (16kph) and found it quite easy. So I thought, why not have a break from cycling as it will probably do me good.

I shouldn't lose any cardiovascular fitness, and if I do one workout a week either by doing a Sunday ride or a gym VO2max session, I might even come back stronger than ever in January.

In my 40s I used to run 20 miles at under 6 minute mile pace and hopefully should do well in my age group. Don't seem to have lost much - thanks to the training on the bike I might suggest.

OK RD, out with your cat-o'-nine tails, I can take it.:D

RD, I don't think you are going to like this.:(

After, Gifu I intend to have 3-5 days complete rest and then no cycling (or perhaps only one day a week) until after January the 7th.I'm not sure why you think I won't like this. I have no problem with taking time off the bike, but you should have realistic expectations upon returning to the bike.

Your FTP and VO2MAX detraining will be substantial. If you take ~2 months completely off the bike, I'm guessing that your FTP and VO2MAX will detrain by ~20%. It will take you ~3 months to return to current levels. That's not a reason to not take some time off the bike (for you or anybody else), but don't deceive yourself that you can retain your cycling fitness by running (or rowing).

You can limit your FTP/VO2MAX detraining to ~10% by doing a couple of workouts per week at ~90% of your current power, but that might not fill the psychological need. You may well come back with a lot of enthusiasm, but you'll need a lot of L4s to regain your current fitness.;)

I'm not sure why you think I won't like this. I have no problem with taking time off the bike, but you should have realistic expectations upon returning to the bike.

Your FTP and VO2MAX detraining will be substantial. If you take ~2 months completely off the bike, I'm guessing that your FTP and VO2MAX will detrain by ~20%. It will take you ~3 months to return to current levels. That's not a reason to not take some time off the bike (for you or anybody else), but don't deceive yourself that you can retain your cycling fitness by running (or rowing).

You can limit your FTP/VO2MAX detraining to ~10% by doing a couple of workouts per week at ~90% of your current power, but that might not fill the psychological need. You may well come back with a lot of enthusiasm, but you'll need a lot of L4s to regain your current fitness.;)
Well RD, certainly some food for thought in that lot. What you're saying basically is that running including hard interval sessions will not help in maintaining my cycling fitness. (even if I do one hard workout on the bike per week) Strange that, because I've found much to my surprise that my running is still pretty good considering a 15 year lay off and being 15 years older. It seems that the cycling training is transferable to running ability. But you are saying the reverse does not hold true.

I think I would like a second opinion here, as you have stated I shall become seriously handicapped and will take 3 months to recover; is there a doctor in the house?:D

I think I would like a second opinion here, as you have stated I shall become seriously handicapped and will take 3 months to recover; is there a doctor in the house?:DWell, the correct term is detrain and, yes, I am saying it will take you ~3 months to return to your current fitness.

It seems that the cycling training is transferable to running ability. But you are saying the reverse does not hold true.Search for threads involving cycling and running, but yes, that seems to be the consensus with posters on this forum.

Search for threads involving cycling and running, but yes, that seems to be the consensus with posters on this forum.
Thanks Dr. French,:D it looks like I shall have to think hard before submitting my application form. I don't want all this training to go to waste. Perhaps, I should do one day a week of running instead. After all, the running is not important, I just wanted to see if I could still do it.

Hey, what about this idea? After each workout on the gym trainer, do a light workout on the treadmill and devote one day to running only????

Ah, decisions, decisions.:( TYSON

Thanks Dr. French,:D it looks like I shall have to think hard before submitting my application form. I don't want all this training to go to waste. Perhaps, I should do one day a week of running instead. After all, the running is not important, I just wanted to see if I could still do it.

Hey, what about this idea? After each workout on the gym trainer, do a light workout on the treadmill and devote one day to running only????

Ah, decisions, decisions.:( TYSONMaybe you need to just accept the fact that you are going to significantly detrain. You didn't get where you are with casual training and you aren't going to maintain your fitness with casual training. But, there are worse things than detraining FTP and VO2MAX by 20%. Do what you need to do to come back with enthusiasm. I don't have that problem because I have only until the end of January to get my FTP up to, well, you know I don't like to set goals. So, let's just say a PB. So little time, so much to do.;)

Maybe you need to just accept the fact that you are going to significantly detrain. You didn't get where you are with casual training and you aren't going to maintain your fitness with casual training. But, there are worse things than detraining FTP and VO2MAX by 20%. Do what you need to do to come back with enthusiasm. I don't have that problem because I have only until the end of January to get my FTP up to, well, you know I don't like to set goals. So, let's just say a PB. So little time, so much to do.;)I would have thought that VO2Max is something that applys to running as well as cycling. Surely it's the same energy system. If I go to a lab to have my VO2Max tested and I remain mum, they have no way of knowing whether I'm a runner, swimmer cyclist or whatever. Tell me I've got it wrong.

Perhaps you are saying, a good runer can improve his VO2Max but specifically adapted for running. So put him on a bike and his VO2Max drops (if that's the right word) I suppose I don't really understand the physiology behind VO2Max.:confused:

I will just have to get down and do some serious reading me thinks.;) TYSON

Addenda.

Have just received an email about the Gifu course on the 5th Nov. The organizer says it's a lovely course (scenery-wise I think he means:rolleyes: ) however, the route get's a bit complicated in the narrow mountain roads, so he's sending me a map and he says please study it well. It is so wild out there in the middle of nowhere there will be no guides telling you which way to go. Sounds more like bloody orienteering to me.:(

So if you don't hear from me the week after the event, you'll know I'm lost up in the Japanese alps and will post again after being rescued. Remember Japanese mountains go on forever from the southern tip to Hokkaido in the north. I'll probably wind up in Kyushu in the southern part of Japan 3 months later. Should have improved my FTP by then.:D

I would have thought that VO2Max is something that applys to running as well as cycling. Surely it's the same energy system. If I go to a lab to have my VO2Max tested and I remain mum, they have no way of knowing whether I'm a runner, swimmer cyclist or whatever. Tell me I've got it wrong.
I think this is all pretty fuzzy stuff, which is why I've refrained from offering my opinions on the matter, but I think the issue is this:

Maximal Oxygen Uptake (VO2max) is not an energy system in itself, but an overall measure of several systems working together. Obviously, the lungs and heart bring in the oxygen and circulate it, but in order for it to be used (taken up) it has to make it's way to the working muscles. That means a high degree of capillarization is needed in those working muscles, and also the muscles themselves must be trained to use a lot of oxygen aerobically, which requires a high mitochodrial density. Athletes trained in one sport are typically not able to reach their VO2max when tested in another sport for obvious reasons. Put me in a test-pool, and now my oxygen uptake is dependent on my untrained circlulatory system and muscles in my arms, back, shoulders, etc. My swimming VO2 will be nowhere near as high as I could get it while cycling.

Not that any of this relates to how much you'll detrain or whether you should run or not. :)

I think this is all pretty fuzzy stuff, which is why I've refrained from offering my opinions on the matter, but I think the issue is this:

Maximal Oxygen Uptake (VO2max) is not an energy system in itself, but an overall measure of several systems working together. Obviously, the lungs and heart bring in the oxygen and circulate it, but in order for it to be used (taken up) it has to make it's way to the working muscles. That means a high degree of capillarization is needed in those working muscles, and also the muscles themselves must be trained to use a lot of oxygen aerobically, which requires a high mitochodrial density. Athletes trained in one sport are typically not able to reach their VO2max when tested in another sport for obvious reasons. Put me in a test-pool, and now my oxygen uptake is dependent on my untrained circlulatory system and muscles in my arms, back, shoulders, etc. My swimming VO2 will be nowhere near as high as I could get it while cycling.

Not that any of this relates to how much you'll detrain or whether you should run or not. :)Thanks Frenchy, that's what I thought and postulated in my previous post (though nowhere near as technical an explanation as yours).;) So really it all boils down to training different muscles in the different sports. However, I was surprised to find I could run at 16kph without any running-specific training in donkey's years. Especially being a geriatric!:D TYSON

........I don't want all this training to go to waste.

Ah, decisions, decisions.:( TYSONI have to say that when I first saw your post of this decision it stunned me. I suppose from an onlooker's point of view I was seeing a guy that seemed totally focused on a specific goal, but there are many things we readers don't see about each other.

Even though I don't practice it myself because I am no longer officially competing in an activity I do believe in sports specific training as much as possible. However, you may be like me and there are sides of you I have not seen yet in your posts and one of mine is to enjoy life and enjoy training the way I want now that I am retired from competition. For me I love weight training first and foremost and then I began doing this "taboo" thing "cycling" which most people trying to hold onto muscle mass do not do. If I were to try to go back to bodybuilding or powerlifting I would have to drop cycling and become completely sport specific to either of those activities.

It's like you say there is a decision to make and you do not have to commit to one or the other, but changing course now I have to imagine a drop in cycling performance over a period of time.

Best wishes to either choice.
Have fun in life should be the main goal.:)