It's killing me but..........

Since 2001, over 90,000 cyclist's have joined Cycling Forums to discuss topics from general cycling to equipment, training, racing and travel or vacation destinations (especially in europe during the tour de france). We also feature an great deals in our online store, 100's of articles, classifieds and product reviews.

Good climbing ability is all about power and weight. My power has increased considerably over the last few weeks, however, the weight has remained virtually static.
When I return home after a good interval session at the gym I am absolutely ravenous. The first thing I eat is a plate of brown rice with a can of tuna or cottage cheese mixed in. That takes care of the immediate protein needs, but then I feel a strong desire for bread (carbohydrates) so I eat a slice of bread and tahini - then I feel the need for something sweet so I gobble down 2 more slices with no sugar added jam. This creates the need for something sweeter so I eat some dried fruit, but that doesn't sate my appetite, so I finally devour some chocolate.
A couple of hours later I can be found in Mista Donuts (Japan) tucking away a high calorie donut. No wonder I'm not losing weight!:( I lose about 400 calories in the gym and promptly replace the lost calories.
How do you guys cope with severe hunger pangs after a good training session?
I know someone is going to say "willpower" but I'm hoping there's some other method of controlling one's intake.

How do you guys cope with severe hunger pangs after a good training session? I know someone is going to say "willpower" but I'm hoping there's some other method of controlling one's intake.Well, if there was an easy answer to this question, then we wouldn't have 64% of Americans overweight or obese. I don't have any magic pill for you (although they are under development), but regardless of how you approach it you need to effect a change in behavior. Here's one approach, but it may not work for you. If it doesn't work for you, keep trying different approaches until you find one that works. Look at it this way. Climbing speed is driven by your power:weight ratio. The common parameter is watts/kg. Let's say you get to 200w and 70kg by May. That's 2.85 w/kg. If you weighed 2kg less, it's equivalent to adding 5.7 watts to your power. That's why I'm on a mission to lose 10kg by May. For me, it will add 40w to my climbing power! That should give you some incentive.

So, here's the suggestion. There is a free website where you can track everything related to weight loss - consumption and exercise. It's http://www.fitday.com/. Recording your daily consumption is easy - they have all the foods, including most of the brand name foods (e.g., if you eat a bowl of Post Raisin Bran cereal, it has Post Raisin Bran cereal with all the calorie and nutrition data for that specific product) as well as the generic foods (e.g., medium size banana). I like to put in my meals immediately after I eat, so I can see my total calories and nutritional breakdown (carbs, protein, etc.) during the day. My suggestion is that you just record everything for a few days - don't cheat, now. Then take a look at it, day by day. The culprits (high calories, high fat, etc.) will be obvious. In all likelihood, it's a handful of things that you like that really run the numbers up. So, ask yourself if there's something you can substitute for those culprit foods that won't put such a dent in your totals. Or, at least save those foods until the end of the day. Then, you can look at your totals before you eat those items and say to yourself, "Okay, my numbers are great right now. So, let's blow up the whole day and get it over with." You may not lose any weight, but you'll be well informed about why you're not losing weight.:D

How do you guys cope with severe hunger pangs after a good training session?
I know someone is going to say "willpower" but I'm hoping there's some other method of controlling one's intake.
I'm at my best if I eat a meal (even a small one, depending on the ride length) before the ride. If I can't get a 'meal' within ~2hrs before the ride, I'll at least eat a sandwich or banana just before it. Then, I also eat an energy bar about an hour and a half into any ride of 2 hrs or longer.

I try to avoid that 'totally empty' feeling, for the reasons you mentioned. I figure on burning 600-800 kcal/hr while riding, so I have to keep putting gas in the tank.

Thanks RD and Frenchy as always. I guess I knew when I posted there was not going to be any easy answer. You gave me that link once before RD, so I'll take another look at it. The problem is, living in Japan I probably won't be able to get half the items mentioned. As for eating during the ride, that's not practical of course in the gym. I think they would take a dim view of me chomping on a banana and flicking the skins over my shoulder.:D

On my Sunday ride on the road I have a banana just before setting off and another half way through the ride, but that doesn't help with hunger pangs when I get off the bike. I think I will have to try to get hold of some Powerbars from somewhere.

Have started my second week of 2 x 20 @ 160W - fairly comfortable and managed to add on some mins to the 2nd interval. Haven't decided yet what to aim for next week. I'll try 2 x 20 @180W and see how it feels. If too high will settle for 170W. Cheers!

Tyson

Have started my second week of 2 x 20 @ 160W - fairly comfortable and managed to add on some mins to the 2nd interval. Haven't decided yet what to aim for next week. I'll try 2 x 20 @180W and see how it feels. If too high will settle for 170W.Here's one trick I sometimes use when I feel as though I'm ready to increase my power for a given interval duration. Ride the first interval(s) at your current power (160w), then ride your last (e.g., second) interval at what you think your new power will be (180w). If you find it really hard to complete the last interval at 180w, then you're probably not ready to step up to it for the full set and you might want to try 170w for the full set. If you complete the last interval with no problem and feel relatively comfortable in the last 5 mins, then you're probably ready to step it up to 180w for the full set. If you try to go to 180w for the full set, and if that's too big a step, you're likely to not finish the set or get somewhat discouraged.

Here's one trick I sometimes use when I feel as though I'm ready to increase my power for a given interval duration. Ride the first interval(s) at your current power (160w), then ride your last (e.g., second) interval at what you think your new power will be (180w). If you find it really hard to complete the last interval at 180w, then you're probably not ready to step up to it for the full set and you might want to try 170w for the full set. If you complete the last interval with no problem and feel relatively comfortable in the last 5 mins, then you're probably ready to step it up to 180w for the full set. If you try to go to 180w for the full set, and if that's too big a step, you're likely to not finish the set or get somewhat discouraged.Hey RD, that's very good advice. Doing it the way I plan, may as you say discourage me.

Now I've a big confession to make. Today was the 2nd day of my 2nd week of 2 x 20 @160W. At first I didn't feel like going to the gym, and when I got there, I considered not training on the bike. Anyway, forced myself to get on the trainer and the first interval @ 160 felt very comfortable, so I thought why not try 180W a la RD's trick. Lo and behold it wasn't that difficult, albeit I lowered the cadence to keep　the HR at 142. And to prove I was ready for 180W, I did the last minute at a cadence of 90 plus. Strangely enough it felt better than the previous 3/4 minutes, so I continued at the same rate for another 30 secs and still felt I could keep going, but wisdom prevailed and I decided to save something for tomorrow.

RD, you've said on more than one occasion what a wonderful thing the human body is. What I find even more amazing, is that when many people of my age have resigned themselves to the front of the TV, sinking ever deeper into the sofa and have decided to wait for goddo; here I am striving to attain greater climbing ability on the bike than I've ever had. (and it seems achieving said)

I'm not going to sit waiting for goddo, he's got to come and find me - preferably at the top of a steep climb one day!:D

The above of course in no small way is thanks to you RD and others who have offered advice.;)

why not try 180W a la RD's trick. Lo and behold it wasn't that difficult, albeit I lowered the cadence to keep　the HR at 142. And to prove I was ready for 180W, I did the last minute at a cadence of 90 plus. Strangely enough it felt better than the previous 3/4 minutes, so I continued at the same rate for another 30 secs and still felt I could keep going, but wisdom prevailed and I decided to save something for tomorrow.I feel as though I'm wearing out awesome, so this time I'll say, "Splendiferous." It sounds as though your training is really kicking in now. I'm beginning to think my 5/15 prediction for 200w is too conservative. You're going to blow through 200w and not look back. Incredible progress! BTW, you keep referring to dropping your cadence to lower your HR or to keep it at a certain level. Why is that? Are you concerned about your HR being too high, or what? While you can manage your HR with cadence, I think you're best off just riding at whatever cadence feels most comfortable at a given power and ignore your HR. Your heart can handle pretty much anything you can throw at it - it's sort of like the Everready bunny - it just keeps going and going.:cool:

RD wrote:

you keep referring to dropping your cadence to lower your HR or to keep it at a certain level. Why is that? Are you concerned about your HR being too high, or what? While you can manage your HR with cadence, I think you're best off just riding at whatever cadence feels most comfortable at a given power and ignore your HR. Your heart can handle pretty much anything you can throw at it - it's sort of like the Everready bunny - it just keeps going and going .:cool:

I'm not concerned about my HR but I like to work quite a bit under my MHR.
In that way I feel I'm less likely to overtrain/ overstress the old body. Also by doing the intervals at a 140ish HR, I have quite a bit left in the tank for the final minute or two when I up the cadence to 90 ++.
Having said that, I noticed today, that even with substantially increasing the leg rate in the last minute and half of the 180W interval, I couldn't get my HR up much above 150 - and that was without undue stress. Remember I'm still feeling my way, and perhaps I'm underating my capability. We'll see.:)

I'm not concerned about my HR but I like to work quite a bit under my MHR. In that way I feel I'm less likely to overtrain/ overstress the old body. Also by doing the intervals at a 140ish HR, I have quite a bit left in the tank for the final minute or two when I up the cadence to 90 ++.
Having said that, I noticed today, that even with substantially increasing the leg rate in the last minute and half of the 180W interval, I couldn't get my HR up much above 150 - and that was without undue stress. Remember I'm still feeling my way, and perhaps I'm underating my capability. We'll see.:)There's lots of mythology about HR. But, when making decisions about exercise intensity based on HR, you should keep two facts in mind. First, the heart responds in two ways to increased exercise intensity - increased frequency (beats per min) and increased stroke volume. These two attributes don't necessarily respond in unison. So, remember that HRMs are only measuring half of the heart's response to increased exercise intensity. Second, cardio is only part of a very complex set of physiological responses to increased exercise intensity. I have a power meter and a HRM. Usually, I ignore my HRM and I never use it to decide to back off. Rather, I'll use it to decide that I'm not pushing myself hard enough. IOW, I never think, "My HR is too high, I need to back off." On the flip side, I'll sometimes think, "Gee, my HR is lower than usual, I must be dogging it." That doesn't mean I don't see a value in HRMs. I do see a value in seeing how long it takes my HR to come down after I finish a long interval at ~90%MHR. I want to see it drop like a stone when I finish the interval, and there is no such thing as dropping too fast. If it came down by 50bpm in 10secs, I'd be thrilled.

RD posted:


That doesn't mean I don't see a value in HRMs. I do see a value in seeing how long it takes my HR to come down after I finish a long interval at ~90%MHR. I want to see it drop like a stone when I finish the interval, and there is no such thing as dropping too fast. If it came down by 50bpm in 10secs, I'd be thrilled
Strange you should mention recovery rate. That is one thing I forgot to mention today. Like you I think recovery rate is a very good indication of one's overall level of fitness. After I finished the session today, my HR dropped from 152 to 120 (which I consider the recovery level) in 40 seconds, which actually pleased me as much as achieving 1 x 20 @180W.

Just one quick question RD if you don't mind. Last Sunday it started to rain just as I left the house to head off to the mountains. This week has been lovely and sunny but as luck would have it, the forecast for Sunday is rain again.
Last Sunday I went to the gym instead, and did 1 hour @ 140W for the want of anything better to do. What would you recommend doing in such a case?
No intervals please!:rolleyes:

After I finished the session today, my HR dropped from 152 to 120 (which I consider the recovery level) in 40 seconds, which actually pleased me as much as achieving 1 x 20 @180W.Yes, that is a good indicator that you are becoming more fit and is a good use for a HRM.

Just one quick question RD if you don't mind. Last Sunday it started to rain just as I left the house to head off to the mountains. This week has been lovely and sunny but as luck would have it, the forecast for Sunday is rain again. Last Sunday I went to the gym instead, and did 1 hour @ 140W for the want of anything better to do. What would you recommend doing in such a case? No intervals please!:rolleyes:On days like that, you're really riding for endurance rather than to increase your sustainable power. If I have media available (tv, movie or music), I just ride at whatever pace feels comfortable and ride as long as I can. Sometimes I can watch an entire movie in one session if I have enough water at hand. I pay no attention to power or HR, I just ride. Every 15 minutes I usually sit straight up in the saddle for 5 mins as a change of position. It's amazing how much power one can make in that position. I've done 5 min intervals in that position.

This week has been lovely and sunny but as luck would have it, the forecast for Sunday is rain again.
Last Sunday I went to the gym instead, and did 1 hour @ 140W for the want of anything better to do. What would you recommend doing in such a case?
No intervals please!:rolleyes:
Do the exercise bikes have 'programs' built into them? I used to like doing those because of the variations and the feeling that I'm just responding to something (like the terrain) rather than having to drive myself, mentally.

Congrats on your progress. Instead of "Waiting for Godot", your story will be "Waiting for My (Your) Riding Partner." :)

Yes, that is a good indicator that you are becoming more fit and is a good use for a HRM.

On days like that, you're really riding for endurance rather than to increase your sustainable power. If I have media available (tv, movie or music), I just ride at whatever pace feels comfortable and ride as long as I can. Sometimes I can watch an entire movie in one session if I have enough water at hand. I pay no attention to power or HR, I just ride. Every 15 minutes I usually sit straight up in the saddle for 5 mins as a change of position. It's amazing how much power one can make in that position. I've done 5 min intervals in that position.
Good idea RD. Will ride until I fall off the bike with boredom.:cool:

Frenchy wrote:


Do the exercise bikes have 'programs' built into them? I used to like doing those because of the variations and the feeling that I'm just responding to something (like the terrain) rather than having to drive myself, mentally.

Unfortunately no.


Congrats on your progress. Instead of "Waiting for Godot", your story will be "Waiting for My (Your) Riding Partner.
LOL Thanks for correcting me. When I wrote Goddo, I thought that's not right
but left it anyway. Haven't used that expression for 30 years.:)

Good idea RD. Will ride until I fall off the bike with boredom.:cool: Here's one more rainy day trainer trick, but it might not work in Japan. I'll turn on the tv and ride at an easy pace except when there is a commercial. When a commercial comes on, I'll ramp it up to L6 pace (>120%FT) and hold it until the end of the commercial(s). You never fully appreciate how many minutes per hour are taken up by commercials until you do this workout. I know you said no intervals, but it's definitely not boring.:D

Good idea RD. Will ride until I fall off the bike with boredom.:cool:
"Go hard during the commericals" is a timeless classic. Also, any number of varying power rides will help change things up, like: "Keep the cadence steady and change gears/resistance" every 2-3 minutes, or "100-120-140-160-180-160-140-120-100 watt pyramids" with 2-3 minutes at each level. One that I do on longer weekend rides (indoors) simulates working in a paceline with other riders and taking 1-minute turns at the front. For you, it'd be something like "4 min at 120w, 1 min at 200w" or something similar.


Haven't used that expression for 30 years.:)
Heh. Was there a time when it was used commonly? I thought that story was weird when I read it in college, and I've heard maybe 2-3 references to it in the 15 years since.

:D Hey guys I'm in the gym - no TVs in there! Maybe I should ask them to install one just for me!:rolleyes: Thanks for the advice though. I don't think I could train indoors at home; no delightful Japanese girls to take my mind off the foolishness of pedalling like a madman.;)

:D Hey guys I'm in the gym - no TVs in there! Maybe I should ask them to install one just for me!:rolleyes: Thanks for the advice though. I don't think I could train indoors at home; no delightful Japanese girls to take my mind off the foolishness of pedalling like a madman.;)
Been catching up on this thread for a bit, big congrats on the performance(s). Quite inspiring!

In Australia, a lot of gyms have TV's in them, possibly because 1/2 the clients wouldnt know a) what to do without tv b) wouldnt go to the gym otherwise..

Ash - Cynical

At last the hills seem to be levelling out!

RD, this week will be my second week of 2x20 (180W). Last week I found the going tough so I did 1x20 (160W) plus 1x20 (180W) each day. This seems to be a better way of acclimatizing oneself to the new Wattage. This week will be solely 180s.
Next week I plan to do 1x20 (180W) plus 1x20 (200W) each day,followed by solely 200W the following week.
BTW, on the 4th of June I've entered for a 160 Kilometre fun ride with 600 other riders. Apparently it's a very tough mountainous course starting up in the mountains at a ski resort, heading down to Lake Biwa. (The largest lake in Japan) - along the banks for a time then heading back to the mountains,finishing at the ski resort. Although it's not a race (as the Japanese call it - My Pace) I'm sure the cream will be fighting it out at the front.
Should I be adding anything to my present training regimen or continue as is?

At last the hills seem to be levelling out!Isn't it cool when that happens?

this week will be my second week of 2x20 (180W). Last week I found the going tough so I did 1x20 (160W) plus 1x20 (180W) each day. This seems to be a better way of acclimatizing oneself to the new Wattage. This week will be solely 180s.Wow! Nice going.

Next week I plan to do 1x20 (180W) plus 1x20 (200W) each day,followed by solely 200W the following week.I think, from a psychological perspective, I'd advise against setting such goals. The alternative approach, and what I do, is to simply train at the level at which I'm currently comfortable until one of two things happens: (1) I feel as though I'm not working as hard as I used to and it's pretty obvious I can bump up my power a bit to recapture the old intensity; or (2) my HR is consistently ~5bpm less than it used to be, which suggests that I'm consistently not creating as much stress on my body. I realize many set specific goals as you have stated and that may work well for them. I pick a training regimen that should eventually produce progress, but I just wait for my body to tell me when it's ready for the next level. I'm never disappointed with a lack of progress because I never had a timeline for progress, only a general expectation that eventually my training would pay off. I figure my body marches to its own beat.

on the 4th of June I've entered for a 160 Kilometre fun ride with 600 other riders. Apparently it's a very tough mountainous course starting up in the mountains at a ski resort, heading down to Lake Biwa. (The largest lake in Japan) - along the banks for a time then heading back to the mountains,finishing at the ski resort. Although it's not a race (as the Japanese call it - My Pace) I'm sure the cream will be fighting it out at the front.
Should I be adding anything to my present training regimen or continue as is?Well, pacing will be everything (a power meter would be indispensible). Even a 10% difference in power will be huge on such a long ride. The right pace on such a long ride is one that feels way too easy the first 1/3rd of the ride, as in "I could go forever at this pace." Don't worry, that same pace will get plenty tough in the last 1/3rd of the ride. You might want to start throwing in some increasingly long rides. Pace is less important than time in the saddle, but I'd say to drop your pace by ~20% from your 2x20 pace (e.g., 140-150w) and just see how far you can go.

RD Thanks for all your advice. I wrote a long reply but lost it. I really hate it when that happens and can never bring myself to rewrite it. That upsets me far more than not keeping up with my target on the bike.:mad: