It's killing me but..........

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.........an intimidating 60 min full power ride (ugh)....

Amen to that ;) . I've been doing mostly 2*20 and 3*20 for a while and last night tried 2*30 (on my indoor trainer as per usual). Not in my wildest dreams could I envisage going a minute longer in the second 30:00 effort (as I think you once said with respect to these 'longer' intervals - the final minutes go like hours :eek: but I reckon a couple of 2*30 for Tyson could be just the thing he needs :p )

......preferred method is the last (most complex) method, use of the Critical Power Curve. I do this because I get lots more information than just an estimate of FTP).....

I find its the 'best' method :cool: . The Critical Power model predicted value for 30:00 and my actual power averages for the 30:00 efforts were within 5W of each other :cool: :cool: (I previously only used 3 points - 5, 10 and 20 minutes)

....... but those are typically 3x30 instead...

Please tell me you're kidding us ;) ..... 3x30 ...man, that's gotta hurt :eek: :eek:

That's basically what my 90%MP rule does. As duration decreases, power is increased because MP increases. Then the only issue is whether there are duration "no man's lands."

RD, just out of curiosity, you have a large amount of knowledge, what type of back ground do you have, are you mathematician? Also with your knowledge & power do you race, ride just with the local group, just a personal challenge to see how far you can push your body, or do you just like :eek: CRUSHING :eek: the young guys? :D :D

By the way, I just took a huge physical leap, finally, it took awhile, then one day it was just there, thanks for your advise.

I noticed the leap after doing about 6 weeks of L5 work. Doing weeks of L4 (2x20s) I noticed a slow gradual increases, doing L5s just put it out the park. Is this the way it happens OR was I just at that point & no matter which level I did I would have made that leap anyway?

Amen to that ;) . I've been doing mostly 2*20 and 3*20 for a while and last night tried 2*30 (on my indoor trainer as per usual). Not in my wildest dreams could I envisage going a minute longer in the second 30:00 effort (as I think you once said with respect to these 'longer' intervals - the final minutes go like hours :eek: but I reckon a couple of 2*30 for Tyson could be just the thing he needs :p )Now he's going to complain of piling on. Good.:D



I find its the 'best' method :cool: . The Critical Power model predicted value for 30:00 and my actual power averages for the 30:00 efforts were within 5W of each other :cool: :cool: (I previously only used 3 points - 5, 10 and 20 minutes)Isn't it cool how accurate it is, at least out to ~60mins? I find it overstates my 120min power, but I can dream.:D

....60mins .....120min.....

Those number's don't compute ;) but a line from an old TV series might apply ......'Danger Will Robinson, Danger' :p

RD, just out of curiosity, you have a large amount of knowledge, what type of back ground do you have, are you mathematician?Thanks. Actually, my background is pure business (Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate). But, when I was in the doctoral program at Harvard, I took advantage of my ability to take almost any course in any of the schools so I took a heavy dose of math and econometrics in the Graduate School of Arts & Sciences. BTW, there was one very funny moment. I took a graduate level course in math and the textbook consisted of two bound red books with the professor's hand written notes. On the first day of class, I was completely lost and we were only covering set theory. I quickly dropped the class and picked up something else. I might add that each of the dozen or so other students seemed bored and they were all Asians. I don't know what they feed them there but they sure know their math. My technical background is mainly due to my interest and background in computers.

Also with your knowledge & power do you race, ride just with the local group, just a personal challenge to see how far you can push your body, or do you just like :eek: CRUSHING :eek: the young guys? :D :D I ride all the local races, but we don't have too many per year. I sometimes consider driving down to Southern California for races (they have one just about every weekend), but the idea of using an entire day to ride one race is not very appealing. In my club, I lead most of our "A" rides and we have developed a very nice bunch of guys of all ages who like to go fast. I enjoy chasing the fastest and lightest up the long climbs. And I find that I don't need anybody else to push myself to my limits. I enjoy seeing how hard I can push myself.

By the way, I just took a huge physical leap, finally, it took awhile, then one day it was just there, thanks for your advise. I noticed the leap after doing about 6 weeks of L5 work. Doing weeks of L4 (2x20s) I noticed a slow gradual increases, doing L5s just put it out the park. Is this the way it happens OR was I just at that point & no matter which level I did I would have made that leap anyway?That's a really important point and I'm glad you stayed with it long enough to realize the jump. I have no idea why, but I have experienced this on several occasions where I will go for several weeks with no apparent increase in power and then, with no warning, BAM! it's just there. A few months ago when Tyson was disappointed in his recent progress I recall telling him about this strange phenomenon. I don't think I understand why this happens, but it does. Cool.:cool:

Please tell me you're kidding us ;) ..... 3x30 ...man, that's gotta hurt :eek: :eek:
.95xFT is below my 90-min MMP, and I doubt that's unusual. The last 10 minutes do hurt, like you pointed out in your post above, but that's the case when I start getting close to my MMP curve at any power.

Wow! That's probably close to a record, although now that I think about it I recall a few on the forum who read it cover to cover the day it arrived (maybe even me).Ah well you know, that was just early afternoon - I finished the book. A lot more makes sense, while it has also created some new questions.


But, for purposes of riding high-intensity efforts at an "appropriate" intensity, I use a simplified approach. Basically, I ride high-intensity efforts at ~90% of my max sustainable power at that duration (other than L7s, which I ride at 100% of my max power). This happens to put me in Andy's power ranges for all levels, although I'm at the upper end of the range in L5 & L6. One byproduct of this approach is that all high-intensity efforts "feel" about the same to me, given that they are all 90% efforts. Another advantage is that regardless of how fit or unfit I am I can quickly find the right power for efforts of a given duration by finding my max power at that duration and only at that duration (e.g., 20mins).I'm not sure I follow....are you saying that you ride your intervals at 90% of your max sustainable power at that duration based on the critical power table? That's what I understood, is that what you meant?

To build that table though one needs data for a variety of time periods, that's what I gathered from the book.

I remember doing exactly the same when i started out doing threshold intervals - it's easy to do. The temptation and the thinking is that you need to do all of this at 100% when in fact you can get exactly the same benefit/results from doing these intervals at a lower intensity (91% as defined by Andy) - that was another 'brick in the face' moment for me. My approach (and the approach used by numerous others out there), in general, is to do the intervals at the lower end of the intensity range. Why? - it's easier to complete whilst providing exactly the same physiological benefit.
This is more or less the same conclusion I reached when I came across the section of the book talking about the 'sweet spot'. I can't see any reason, at least now, why I'd want to do intervals designed to raise FTP at a level outside of that 88-94% range that is deemed so productive.

I'm not sure I follow....are you saying that you ride your intervals at 90% of your max sustainable power at that duration based on the critical power table? That's what I understood, is that what you meant?Yes, based on the critical power model or prior efforts. So, I would ride a 10min effort at 90% of my 10MP and I would ride a 30min effort at 90% of my 30MP. It just so happens that these targets are within Andy's schema (e.g., 10-30min efforts at 91%-105%FTP) with the obviously inverse duration/power relationship (longer durations = less power). On my road rides, I do L4 efforts at multiple durations from 10-30mins, L5 efforts at multiple durations from 3-10mins, etc. So, I need a methodology that works throughout the MP/duration curve. Plus, I like practicing variable power pacing strategies for TTs. You'll find that riding at a specific target power (+/- a small tolerance) is quite a challenge and (at least for me) requires constant practice.

To build that table though one needs data for a variety of time periods, that's what I gathered from the book.I use three data points (3, 8 and 30mins). There are arguments for not using durations shorter than ~3mins and longer than ~30mins. It doesn't really take very long to do the three max power efforts. In fact, I usually do them on the same ride.

This is more or less the same conclusion I reached when I came across the section of the book talking about the 'sweet spot'. I can't see any reason, at least now, why I'd want to do intervals designed to raise FTP at a level outside of that 88-94% range that is deemed so productive.
For threshold work, I think this range is as good a place to start as any (subject to the inverse power/duration relationship that RD and frenchy have mentioned). The big aspect in interval training is the mental effort required to push yourself and for beginners getting into it, this can be a big hurdle to overcome. You're certainly not going to be worse off by taking the above approach...but they still aren't easy;)

That's a really important point and I'm glad you stayed with it long enough to realize the jump. I have no idea why, but I have experienced this on several occasions where I will go for several weeks with no apparent increase in power and then, with no warning, BAM! it's just there. A few months ago when Tyson was disappointed in his recent progress I recall telling him about this strange phenomenon. I don't think I understand why this happens, but it does. Cool.:cool:

I remember when that was happening to Tyson.
How often do you switch from doing L5 to L4?
I have done 6 weeks of L5, when should I go back & start doing another block of L4s?
I am enjoying the L5s, short & sweet, what happens if I continue another 6 weeks of L5, will I lose my L4 20min power that I used to be at when I do go back to L4?

I remember when that was happening to Tyson.
How often do you switch from doing L5 to L4? I have done 6 weeks of L5, when should I go back & start doing another block of L4s? I am enjoying the L5s, short & sweet, what happens if I continue another 6 weeks of L5, will I lose my L4 20min power that I used to be at when I do go back to L4?Ah, the mix question.:D The answer to this question is complex. It really depends on a whole bunch of factors, including how well trained one is to begin with, when one's next target event is, what one's strengths and weaknesses are, how much training time one has, etc., etc. This is actually one of the best arguments for a personal coach. It's a lot easier to figure out how to target a specific adaptation than it is to figure out the weekly volume and mix of high-intensity work. But, in specific answer to your question for myself, I do L4-L6 work every week, year-round, with L7s only when I have a race within 2 months. I have four races this weekend and then no races until the end of January, so my last L7 efforts will be today (until December). I also have a fairly high ratio of L5-L6 time now relative to total L4-L7 time. Beginning next week, my percent of L5-L6 time will drop, as will my total volume of L4-L7 time.

Going forward, this will all change as I learn to use my new tools: Performance Manager and my own ride file parsing tool for computing weekly TSS by training level. It's going to take me several months to figure out what to do with all these new data on both total training stress and on the sub-structure of my high-intensity work.:confused:

Ah, the mix question.:D The answer to this question is complex. It really depends on a whole bunch of factors, including how well trained one is to begin with, when one's next target event is, what one's strengths and weaknesses are, how much training time one has, etc., etc. This is actually one of the best arguments for a personal coach. It's a lot easier to figure out how to target a specific adaptation than it is to figure out the weekly volume and mix of high-intensity work. But, in specific answer to your question for myself, I do L4-L6 work every week, year-round, with L7s only when I have a race within 2 months. I have four races this weekend and then no races until the end of January, so my last L7 efforts will be today (until December). I also have a fairly high ratio of L5-L6 time now relative to total L4-L7 time. Beginning next week, my percent of L5-L6 time will drop, as will my total volume of L4-L7 time.

Going forward, this will all change as I learn to use my new tools: Performance Manager and my own ride file parsing tool for computing weekly TSS by training level. It's going to take me several months to figure out what to do with all these new data on both total training stress and on the sub-structure of my high-intensity work.:confused:

I'll just do what I have been doing, I just do a certain level until I start getting bored of that routine, then switch to the other until I get bored & switch again. Since I can do about 2 to 2-1/2 months (8-10weeks) before I start getting bored with a routine, that should be enough to see some adaption. The thing is when I get a huge fitness leap, I dont want to stop that training level, so I usually do it for about another weak or so, then switch I just want to make sure I really made an increase and not that I was just having one super day.

Thanks. Actually, my background is pure business (Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate). But, when I was in the doctoral program at Harvard, I took advantage of my ability to take almost any course in any of the schools so I took a heavy dose of math and econometrics in the Graduate School of Arts & Sciences. BTW, there was one very funny moment. I took a graduate level course in math and the textbook consisted of two bound red books with the professor's hand written notes. On the first day of class, I was completely lost and we were only covering set theory. I quickly dropped the class and picked up something else. I might add that each of the dozen or so other students seemed bored and they were all Asians. I don't know what they feed them there but they sure know their math. My technical background is mainly due to my interest and background in computers.
Harvard, oh my. Naturally this was just blatantly obvious based on the username alone. :D

We're glad regardless!

Naturally this was just blatantly obvious based on the username alone. :D My 5 kids gave me my username, because they know I can't stand rap music. You can guess how much respect I command in my house.:D

You can guess how much respect I command in my house.:D
Unquestioned. Absolute.

Those are my guesses anyway ;)

Unquestioned. Absolute.Right. I'll tell them, but only after I make sure the floor is clear of obstacles so they won't hurt themselves rolling on the floor with laughter.:D

Right, I'm back to lower the tone of this thread again. I couldn't join in the recent discussion here because I don't speak Double Dutch.:)

Finished tapering this week for Sunday's 150K (actually 149), although some would not call it tapering.

After Tuesday's workout which I mentioned in an earlier post, took Wed off, then yesterday in line with RD's advice halved my usual 20min FT volume to 10mins, but have to confess to raising the intensity from 250W to 260W. On checking back to May, this was double what I've ever done at 260Watts.
But having done VO2 Max workouts at 280W, this was obviously no big deal and felt fairly comfortable with no noticeable change in my breathing. Finished off with 1 x 25 mins @170W at a very high cadence.

Today, simply did 1x20 mins at 170W and an insane cadence, and could have gone on forever. Looking back at March, I see that 160W was my FTP.

Yes RD, as you have said many times; isn't it amazing how the body adapts?

If I may bore you to tears for a moment, I shall explain how Sunday's ride works.

There are 60 riders of varying ability. (all serious though)

There are, I think 4 stops - one after only 23km because it is a scenic spot at the top of the lake.

The 2nd one comes after another 53km.

A further 30k and we have lunch. (unbelievable!)

Between there and the finish there is one more stop at a convenience store.

After the starter casually says OK let's go, you set off when you feel like it.
Last year I set off with the first 20 riders or so and thought we wouldn't be caught. But it wasn't that long before Japanese Bullet trains came past us as if we were hardly moving - led of course by the "Smoker" who took the time out to greet me.

At the stops you wait until everyone has caught up and filled their bottles, then it is set off again at your own pace. If you think this sounds like a leisurely Sunday tempo ride, forget it. Between stations these guys are deadly serious, believe me.

Last year I was the first home, doing the last 20ks or so solo because I didn't stop at the convenience store. (I was fed up with stopping). Personally I wouldn't stop for more than a minute in 150ks should I need to fill my water bottle. The "Smoker" came in 2 mins after me and was undoubtedly the fastest on the day.

My plan this year, and I stress it is only a plan. Despite what Bullgod said in another thread, I shall start off at the same time as the "Smoker" and try to stay with his group. I figure I will need to generate some 300 watts when I'm at the front (for 30secs;) )

My plan will most likely flop, but it won't be through lack of trying. TYSON

My plan this year, and I stress it is only a plan. Despite what Bullgod said in another thread, I shall start off at the same time as the "Smoker" and try to stay with his group. I figure I will need to generate some 300 watts when I'm at the front (for 30secs;) )That sounds like a workable plan. If the pace of your group is 300W (on front) and if you can draft ~6 mins for every minute you're on front then your NP will be ~235W (using a draft power of 220W). You might be able to manage that for the duration of the event. My advice is to keep your pulls short in the first half of the ride. Everybody will want to go to the front early on and pull long and hard to show how strong they are. My advice is to take full advantage of this misguided exuberance and save yourself. There will be plenty of opportunities to take long pulls in the second half when everybody's trying to avoid the front. I assume you've changed your tires to something with low rolling resistance. Personally, I'm now riding the Michelin Pro2 Race tire when rolling resistance matters (e.g., races). And if the roads are smooth, I'd go with the Tufo Tubular Clincher at 220psi. Tires make a big difference. You're ready. Have a great ride!:D