It's killing me but..........

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This is a fairly important statement because it puts the methods of managing intensity of effort in a hierarchical order of preference, PM, HRM, cadence/RPE. I would not rank the alternative methods that way. I would rank them PM, trainer with a speedometer, RPE, then HRM. The reasons for this ranking are too involved for a one paragraph explanation, but the reason HRM is last is because HR is affected by too many things other than intensity of effort. Frankly, I never recommend that someone train by HRM, because there is always a better option.
Well, that should put the cat among the pigeons again.:D

I still get regular PMs from guys who are following this thread and say how their cycling has improved as a result. For some reason they prefer to chat to me at the back door rather than in this thread. Why I don't know but that is their prerogative. Perhaps they are afraid someone might ask what their FTP is and they don't wish to reveal it. I can tell you, and if you go back to page one you will see, my FT was so low power meters had a job recording it.:D

To people just checking in for the first time, especially newbies; you obviously don't want to read through 54 pages to see what the thread is about, so I'll sum it up as simply as possible.

It is all about taking a geriatric who wasn't getting faster on the bike and was perhaps even slowing down on hills, and with the help of people like RapDaddyo and other forum members recommending a structured training regimen, the result has been undreamt of improvement. If you are young, just think what this training could do for you.

If you don't have a power meter (which I don't) or a nearby gym with good indoor trainers, you can of course get by with a heart rate meter (some people swear by them) and if you don't have either you could perhaps and I emphasize perhaps, make do by training with cadence (and perceived effort). Any of the above would probably suffice, the important thing is sustained effort for say Level 4 @ 10mins 20mins or 30 mins (some masochists do longer intervals) Level 5 @ 4-6 mins and Level 6 @ 2-3 mins.

Best of luck! ;) TYSON

http://www.cyclingforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif [ Report SPAM ] (http://www.cyclingforums.com/report.php?p=3021391) This may say something about my mental state but.....I read the entire 54 pages. Informative obviously, but also very entertaining.

And yes, I'm also a newbie with wheezing power numbers (estimated on analyticcyling.com anyway). So I'll be making use of the material in this thread extensively once my new PM arrives in 10 days or so.

Well, that should put the cat among the pigeons again.:DProbably. Just hopefully not on this thread. My point was not to reopen this debate, but to throw cold water on your (perhaps unintentional) rank ordering of the methods of managing intensity of effort. The fact is that you have never trained by HRM, not on your trainer rides and not on your Sunday road rides. That is not merely coincidental.:D

This may say something about my mental state but.....I read the entire 54 pages. Informative obviously, but also very entertaining.

And yes, I'm also a newbie with wheezing power numbers (estimated on analyticcyling.com anyway). So I'll be making use of the material in this thread extensively once my new PM arrives in 10 days or so.
RD, have we got any "Endurance Medals" left? :D

Now, I have a bone to pick with you Lucy Windywillow. This thread is not meant to be entertaining, it is designed to help people get the most out of cycling through putting themselves through unadulterated physical and mental torture. A dreading of waking up in the morning and having to subject yourself to L4,L5 or L6 intervals, when it would be much more pleasant to trot along to Starbucks, order your favourite coffee and cake and contemplate your naval.;)

And RD, I unwittingly put the methods in that order, when really HRMs should have been at the top.:rolleyes: And as I said in an earlier post last week, I might or might not have something to report later on today.:)

RD, have we got any "Endurance Medals" left? :D No, we have to order some more. Unbelievable!

And RD, I unwittingly put the methods in that order, when really HRMs should have been at the top.:rolleyes: Sometimes you're too subtle for me, Tyson.:D

Now, I have a bone to pick with you Lucy Windywillow. This thread is not meant to be entertaining, it is designed to help people get the most out of cycling through putting themselves through unadulterated physical and mental torture. A dreading of waking up in the morning and having to subject yourself to L4,L5 or L6 intervals, when it would be much more pleasant to trot along to Starbucks, order your favourite coffee and cake and contemplate your naval.;)
Absolutely. I agree. It is with absolutely unabashed pleasure that I read the thread about you doing all these whimsical L4-L6 intervals. It just makes my latte's go down so much better! My navel? Another pleasant subject, but unrelated :P

Seriously, I followed the trail back to its origin where you outright wondered about retiring. And now, what, you are sporting around near 300 watt FTP numbers? Will you be lining up for Discovery in France next year?

I'm jealous! How often does someone say that and truly mean it? http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Absolutely. I agree. It is with absolutely unabashed pleasure that I read the thread about you doing all these whimsical L4-L6 intervals. It just makes my latte's go down so much better! My navel? Another pleasant subject, but unrelated :P

Seriously, I followed the trail back to its origin where you outright wondered about retiring. And now, what, you are sporting around near 300 watt FTP numbers? Will you be lining up for Discovery in France next year?

I'm jealous! How often does someone say that and truly mean it? http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gifAfter this morning's workout in the gym contemplating one's navel sounds like utopia. Lucy, I wish I was near a 300FTP, but nay, far from it.

Although I should be tapering this week, I had to see how long I could hold 300Watts. Intended to do it tomorrow, but the Lake Biwa ride is approaching fast.
The longest to date I've held 300 watts is 3 minutes. My intention today was to do 6 minutes. When I reached 5 minutes I thought, this is crazy, I'm supposed to be tapering. Anyway, managed the 5 mins (which is only a quarter of the way). RD will probably say that in reality it isn't actually a quarter - somewhere nearer a fifth!:(

Finished off the hour going from 170W @ 2mins, going up in 10watt steps to 240W @ 2mins, then back down again in 10watt steps to 170W and back up to 220w and down to 180W. Don't tell RD, but I finished off with 1x1minute @ 350W at a cadence of 120-140. (he doesn't like me doing that at the end of a workout)
The strange thing is, that 350W burst seemed a lot easier than the 300W effort. Maybe I was well warmed up. However, took a peek at my HR at the end and it was 167bpm. Then the machine switched off because the hour was up.
So taking the delay into consideration it was probably not far off 170bpm. If I'd been watching my HR I might have chickened out earlier; that is why I don't like training using a HRM.

Finally Lucy, keep up with your training and if your Wranglers are made of the right stuff you will exceed my figures. :D TYSON
TYSON

Although I should be tapering this weekI don't think you need to taper much. I'm a long, long, long way from reaching any firm conclusions about tapering (haven't been able to read enough stuff and spend enough time with my own data), but I'm leaning in the direction of a cut point (of weekly training volume) below which one doesn't need to taper at all and above which there are benefits of tapering but the tapering plan is specific to the demands (e.g., AC vs. FTP) of the upcoming event. So, basically you taper for specific reasons rather than embrace some general, "it's beneficial to taper..." approach. I think your weekly volume is near the cut point such that I'm not sure you need to taper at all. I think you should just cut your volume slightly (e.g., 25%) from now until your event. Sorry I don't have more definitive info, but I've been wrestling alligators (figuratively).

I had to see how long I could hold 300Watts. Intended to do it tomorrow, but the Lake Biwa ride is approaching fast. The longest to date I've held 300 watts is 3 minutes. My intention today was to do 6 minutes. When I reached 5 minutes I thought, this is crazy, I'm supposed to be tapering. Anyway, managed the 5 mins (which is only a quarter of the way). RD will probably say that in reality it isn't actually a quarter - somewhere nearer a fifth!:( Actually, that's about the duration of my first breakthrough at 300W. There's this hill that I climb regularly that is ~3.5 miles total with a stop light at ~1.4 miles. For some reason, I always check my time at that intersection and 6 minutes was an elusive target. It turns out that 6mins requires almost exactly 300W (at least at my weight at that time). My first time to break the 6min barrier was the first time I held 300W for more than 5mins. A few months later I was holding 300W to the top of the hill and further. When I look back on it, it's hard to believe how hard it was to break through the 6min barrier on that short part of the hill and it seems like the rest came easier. BTW, now if I don't climb that segment of my hill at something ~350W, I know I'm holding back.

Actually, that's about the duration of my first breakthrough at 300W. There's this hill that I climb regularly that is ~3.5 miles total with a stop light at ~1.4 miles. For some reason, I always check my time at that intersection and 6 minutes was an elusive target. It turns out that 6mins requires almost exactly 300W (at least at my weight at that time). My first time to break the 6min barrier was the first time I held 300W for more than 5mins. A few months later I was holding 300W to the top of the hill and further. When I look back on it, it's hard to believe how hard it was to break through the 6min barrier on that short part of the hill and it seems like the rest came easier. BTW, now if I don't climb that segment of my hill at something ~350W, I know I'm holding back.Trying the scare tactics again RD.;) It won't work, I'm coming for you so watch your back wheel. :D
I might be wrong, but I feel a big breakthrough is coming soon. We shall see after Biwa.
Just one question. Does the fact that one can hold 300watts for 5 plus mins augur well for achieving 1x20 @ 300 watts, or it is still possible to plateau at say 270Watts? Thinking about it the answer must be yes, however, I would think you have more chance of achieving said FTP than if you were unable to do 300W at all.

Thanks for the advice on the tapering btw. TYSON

Trying the scare tactics again RD.;) It won't work, I'm coming for you so watch your back wheel. :D Oh, I'm watching my back wheel (and my weight).

Just one question. Does the fact that one can hold 300watts for 5 plus mins augur well for achieving 1x20 @ 300 watts, or it is still possible to plateau at say 270Watts? Thinking about it the answer must be yes, however, I would think you have more chance of achieving said FTP than if you were unable to do 300W at all.It's a leading indicator, but you don't want to spend too much time trying to ride at your target FTP. For example, you could do 5min durations every day at 300W and max out your VO2MAX, but that doesn't mean you're getting close to your FTP goal. You'll make a lot more progress trying to inch up the power of your 20-30min efforts. If you were to increase your L4 sets to 3x20 @ 100%FTP, you would make steady progress to your goal. Now, 3x20 doesn't sound much different from 2x20, but it is actually much more difficult because it is a 50% increase in total training stress (I'm completely discounting the recovery durations). And, until you are doing 3x20s at your target FTP, don't deceive yourself that you're there yet. If I can do 3x20 at xxx watts with 5min recovery durations, then maybe, just maybe, with lots of rest and huge motivation, I might be able to maintain xxx watts for 60mins. But, if I can't maintain power throughout the 3x20 set, there's no way in hell I can hold the power for 60mins.

After this morning's workout in the gym contemplating one's navel sounds like utopia. Lucy, I wish I was near a 300FTP, but nay, far from it.

Although I should be tapering this week, I had to see how long I could hold 300Watts. Intended to do it tomorrow, but the Lake Biwa ride is approaching fast.
The longest to date I've held 300 watts is 3 minutes. My intention today was to do 6 minutes. When I reached 5 minutes I thought, this is crazy, I'm supposed to be tapering. Anyway, managed the 5 mins (which is only a quarter of the way). RD will probably say that in reality it isn't actually a quarter - somewhere nearer a fifth!:(

Finished off the hour going from 170W @ 2mins, going up in 10watt steps to 240W @ 2mins, then back down again in 10watt steps to 170W and back up to 220w and down to 180W. Don't tell RD, but I finished off with 1x1minute @ 350W at a cadence of 120-140. (he doesn't like me doing that at the end of a workout)
The strange thing is, that 350W burst seemed a lot easier than the 300W effort. Maybe I was well warmed up. However, took a peek at my HR at the end and it was 167bpm. Then the machine switched off because the hour was up.
So taking the delay into consideration it was probably not far off 170bpm. If I'd been watching my HR I might have chickened out earlier; that is why I don't like training using a HRM.

Finally Lucy, keep up with your training and if your Wranglers are made of the right stuff you will exceed my figures. :D TYSON
TYSONHmmm, well Tyson, methinks, and I'm not the sharpest pencil either, that you are far closer to 300 FTP than to your salad days of 130. Si?

Ah tapering. Does that make people cranky or anxious? I am curious. Perhaps I will have a go myself when I am semi-fit enough to do an event.

Strangely enough I can easily see why you were interested in trying to do 350. The PM is no doubt an incredibly useful tool. I am not kidding myself, it also appeals to that side of me that is about, say 9, which would always wonder....can I climb that tree? can I beat that kid in a race? can I do 350 watts? :)

Exceed your figures? ha ha. Come now, be serious. I'm shooting for 200 by the end of the year and 250 for next year.

We will have to see about those wranglers after all ;)

Hmmm, well Tyson, methinks, and I'm not the sharpest pencil either, that you are far closer to 300 FTP than to your salad days of 130. Si?

Ah tapering. Does that make people cranky or anxious? I am curious. Perhaps I will have a go myself when I am semi-fit enough to do an event.

Strangely enough I can easily see why you were interested in trying to do 350. The PM is no doubt an incredibly useful tool. I am not kidding myself, it also appeals to that side of me that is about, say 9, which would always wonder....can I climb that tree? can I beat that kid in a race? can I do 350 watts? :)

Exceed your figures? ha ha. Come now, be serious. I'm shooting for 200 by the end of the year and 250 for next year.

We will have to see about those wranglers after all ;)
Say you don't know, you might surprise yourself - I did. I found myself ahead of my pessimistic forecast and RDs prediction of when I would reach 200W.
Mind you, I'm now way behind when I thought I might be doing 300W comfortably. FTP-wise that is.
For me anyway, just turning those pedals at 250W and above for any length of time became hard. I'm comfortable now with 250W and I'll let you know what 260W feels like after Biwa. RD hates me predicting so I do it just to annoy him, but I aim to do 280Watts for at least 20 mins without due stress by the year end. That equates to a 115% increase in 11 months - not sure whether that is good or bad, but I shall be happy with that.
This of course is assuming no sudden quantum leap in progress which I'm hoping for. Ever hopeful! TYSON:D

I aim to do 280Watts for at least 20 mins without due stress by the year end. That equates to a 115% increase in 11 monthsWell, you're only off by an order of magnitude, but then you did say you're no math whiz. The actual increase (from a physiological stress perspective) is ~2000%. I'll let the math types figure out why.

Well, you're only off by an order of magnitude, but then you did say you're no math whiz. The actual increase (from a physiological stress perspective) is ~2000%. I'll let the math types figure out why.
2000% :eek: One too many zeros there, isn't there RD?

2000% Bring out the coffin, I'll go peacefully.:D

RD hates me predicting so I do it just to annoy him, but I aim to do 280Watts for at least 20 mins without due stress by the year end. I like having a number in my head. It just gives me something to focus on. Then ideally when I reach it, time to set the bar higher.

That equates to a 115% increase in 11 months - not sure whether that is good or bad, but I shall be happy with that.
This of course is assuming no sudden quantum leap in progress which I'm hoping for. Ever hopeful! TYSON:Dheh....you aren't sure whether to be happy with a 115% increase in 11 months? What exactly is the sticking point because I'd be doing cartwheels and kicking my heels up http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

2000% :eek: One too many zeros there, isn't there RD?No, there aren't too many zeros. But, I'm not telling you why. You'll have to figure it out.:D

No, there aren't too many zeros. But, I'm not telling you why. You'll have to figure it out.:DWell I've been happily following this thread for while but never had much to add. However I AM a math type so I thought this would be my chance.

I remember from pages past that RD says "the first 100W are free" so the 130 W starting number is really 30W and the 280W ending number is really 180W.

Doing the math 180W is a 500% increase over 30W.

I thought I knew the answer, but I don't know how you got 2000.

Well I've been happily following this thread for while but never had much to add. However I AM a math type so I thought this would be my chance.

I remember from pages past that RD says "the first 100W are free" so the 130 W starting number is really 30W and the 280W ending number is really 180W.

Doing the math 180W is a 500% increase over 30W.

I thought I knew the answer, but I don't know how you got 2000.Good memory. That's actually a good answer, but not exactly where I was going. Hint: look at the computation of NP and its underlying logic.:D

I like having a number in my head. It just gives me something to focus on. Then ideally when I reach it, time to set the bar higher.
The amazing thing about training with power is the amount of additional insight you gain about your body and its abilities. After a few rides with a PM, doing rides of all shapes and sizes, the software will pick out your Mean Maximal Power curve, which is the maximal power that you've been able to hold for any duration - 5 seconds to 5 hours. This curve represents a very real, physical limit for your body and whether you're pushing it or taking it easy, your body will start to complain, then shut down, when you get close to that curve. The point I'm trying to emphasize is that your body is aware of that curve even when your mind is not, and breaking that curve by even a couple watts or few minutes becomes a herculean task (and a major accomplishment). Instead of dreaming about the day you hit 250w, you'll find yourself tentatively daring to try to raise an interval set by 5w each. Still, it's a great feeling when you suspect your FT has risen by 5w, and then you go out on that next workout and nail it. Each baby-step becomes a huge confidence boost and motivates you for the next step.

The amazing thing about training with power is the amount of additional insight you gain about your body and its abilities. After a few rides with a PM, doing rides of all shapes and sizes, the software will pick out your Mean Maximal Power curve, which is the maximal power that you've been able to hold for any duration - 5 seconds to 5 hours. This curve represents a very real, physical limit for your body and whether you're pushing it or taking it easy, your body will start to complain, then shut down, when you get close to that curve. The point I'm trying to emphasize is that your body is aware of that curve even when your mind is not, and breaking that curve by even a couple watts or few minutes becomes a herculean task (and a major accomplishment). Instead of dreaming about the day you hit 250w, you'll find yourself tentatively daring to try to raise an interval set by 5w each. Still, it's a great feeling when you suspect your FT has risen by 5w, and then you go out on that next workout and nail it. Each baby-step becomes a huge confidence boost and motivates you for the next step.What an incredibly insightful post.:D