It's killing me but..........

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The only people who would laugh at 250-260W 20min L4 efforts are those so genetically gifted that they should be spending all of their available time thanking their parents for their genetic gifts and therefore they have no time for laughing.

BTW, just to put a little arithmetic to the issue, 300W is 2.07x 250W (physiologically). Not exactly a small leap. But, I think you can do it.:D
2 HOURS 7 MINUTES!:eek: @ 250WATTS.

OK, I'll do that in the gym tomorrow.

No, no I didn't say that, honestly I didn't. Aw c'mon I was only joking!:D

Ok, I finished reading the entire thread and been reading the hunter/coggan book.

I must say that the information in this thread from all sides has been certainly invaluable.

In my small country(Trinidad) I don't think anyone has a powermeter at least to my knowledge but at least I have one on my kinetic trainer :D

Ok, I finished reading the entire thread and been reading the hunter/coggan book.Wow! That deserves some sort of award.:D

In my small country(Trinidad) I don't think anyone has a powermeter at least to my knowledge but at least I have one on my kinetic trainer :DThen you're ready to rock!:D

Hope this is not the end of a great thread, although, if it is, I'm looking forward to getting some of my life back from not having to catch up with it every few days ;)

Whilst I understand your discomfort at all the graphs and figures, when I think about the fantastic progress you've make over the past 9 months (with much hard work and dedication on your part; but also by following a structured program based on sports science with some number crunching by thrown in by RDo for good measure) I'm a little surprised to see you give up on this approach at this point in time, with your target event just round the corner :confused:

Or perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick (sorry if that's the case) :)
Yep, FC you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one is giving anything up. I just won't be calculating TSS, IF, CTL, ATL etc. I just don't have the yen to take it that far. Having said that, I might soon hit a wall and feel the need to take a look at the aforementioned - but I doubt it. As long as I'm making steady progress towards an FTP of 300Watts, I'm happy.
As RD puts it so succinctly; I'm a "feel" guy.;) TYSON

Oh, and sorry if I'm taking your life away. A man of your calibre can surely get by without reading this inane thread. Being a fastcat that is.:D

Yep, FC you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one is giving anything up. I just won't be calculating TSS, IF, CTL, ATL etc. I just don't have the yen to take it that far. Having said that, I might soon hit a wall and feel the need to take a look at the aforementioned - but I doubt it. As long as I'm making steady progress towards an FTP of 300Watts, I'm happy.
As RD puts it so succinctly; I'm a "feel" guy.;) TYSON

Oh, and sorry if I'm taking your life away. A man of your calibre can surely get by without reading this inane thread. Being a fastcat that is.:DOkay, glad to hear it. Apologies for casting aspersions. :)

Though 'fastcat' isn't a reference to my cycling abilities - in that respect I'd be 'abitslowbuteversoslightlyfasterthanIusedtobecat', but that's a bit of a mouthful.

My medium term FTP target is also 300w, btw, (which would be 4.0 w/kg). Per RDo's helpful advice to some questions I posed on another thread, I've been increasing the intensity of my training over the past few weeks (keeping the volume about the same) and am seeing early signs of progress on the road in terms of average speed on favourite rides. Plus, I dusted the trainer off and have put it into use for some weekday evenings now the nights are drawing in a bit here.

Difficult to know exactly where I am now as I don't have a PM, and I hesitate to post this in case it's an over-estimate and I also don't want to get ahead of myself, but on the exercise bike at the gym last week, I held 265w for 20mins, so I'm hoping about 240-250w may be where I am at the moment. Although I'm not sure how accurate the measurement on the gym machines are. (They are 'LifeFitness'). I'll repeat the test in about a month on the same bike, so absolute accuracy won't matter so much - I should still be able to tell if I'm improving.

Recently I've been seeking to increase the length of time I can hold approx. L4 - and have got up to about an hour on the road (per HRM/feel), and at some point may attempt it at the gym so see what I can really hold for an hour in terms of watts, but they will need to get an industrial sized fan in to keep me cool - I really suffer with overheating on those machines. Plus the saddle and crank lengths on those bikes really don't suit me.

As I make definite progress I'll report back (or on my own ever-so-slightly-shorter thread ;)).


Ken

Although I'm not sure how accurate the measurement on the gym machines are. (They are 'LifeFitness'). I'll repeat the test in about a month on the same bike, so absolute accuracy won't matter so much - I should still be able to tell if I'm improving.Tru dat.;)

Okay, glad to hear it. Apologies for casting aspersions. :)

Though 'fastcat' isn't a reference to my cycling abilities - in that respect I'd be 'abitslowbuteversoslightlyfasterthanIusedtobecat', but that's a bit of a mouthful.

My medium term FTP target is also 300w, btw, (which would be 4.0 w/kg). Per RDo's helpful advice to some questions I posed on another thread, I've been increasing the intensity of my training over the past few weeks (keeping the volume about the same) and am seeing early signs of progress on the road in terms of average speed on favourite rides. Plus, I dusted the trainer off and have put it into use for some weekday evenings now the nights are drawing in a bit here.

Difficult to know exactly where I am now as I don't have a PM, and I hesitate to post this in case it's an over-estimate and I also don't want to get ahead of myself, but on the exercise bike at the gym last week, I held 265w for 20mins, so I'm hoping about 240-250w may be where I am at the moment. Although I'm not sure how accurate the measurement on the gym machines are. (They are 'LifeFitness'). I'll repeat the test in about a month on the same bike, so absolute accuracy won't matter so much - I should still be able to tell if I'm improving.

Recently I've been seeking to increase the length of time I can hold approx. L4 - and have got up to about an hour on the road (per HRM/feel), and at some point may attempt it at the gym so see what I can really hold for an hour in terms of watts, but they will need to get an industrial sized fan in to keep me cool - I really suffer with overheating on those machines. Plus the saddle and crank lengths on those bikes really don't suit me.

As I make definite progress I'll report back (or on my own ever-so-slightly-shorter thread ;)).


Ken
Hey Ken, it seems we are running neck and neck at the mo, assuming the machines are comparable. 250Watts was so easy last week, I'm sure I could do 260/265 for 20 mins.

Unfortunately we shall have to wait until after the 8th of October (Lake Biwa ride) to confirm that statement. I will take 3 full days off after Biwa so we're looking at the 12th. I was going to start at 260W but you've inspired me to go for 265W. Between now and then please don't tell me you've improved on your figures.;) TYSON

I think this week I proved that you have to train hard to be able to train hard.

After last Sunday's good ride of 100km with 4 serious climbs, due to circumstances I had to have 3 days off. Yesterday, Thursday on the trainer it was hard work doing my L4 intervals and today it was even harder to really get going. A wasted week! :(

Sunday I intend to do my longest hardest ride before Biwa on the 8th of Oct, and next week I shall train like there's no tomorrow (up until Friday), then shall start to taper.

I think the moral of the story is:- If you slack you go back! :D TYSON

After last Sunday's good ride of 100km with 4 serious climbs, due to circumstances I had to have 3 days off. Yesterday, Thursday on the trainer it was hard work doing my L4 intervals and today it was even harder to really get going. A wasted week! :( Normal. Don't worry about it.

Sunday I intend to do my longest hardest ride before Biwa on the 8th of Oct, and next week I shall train like there's no tomorrow (up until Friday), then shall start to taper.This is a big deal! What's your tapering plan? All that matters is your volume and intensity relative to your average volume and intensity of the last few weeks. For example, a 2-week tapering strategy might be week1 = 75% volume, same intensities, week2 = 50% volume, same intensities. Or, you could express it in terms of minutes per week at L4, L5, L6. I think the distribution of volume and intensity by day is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is the volume and intensity for the week, not the day by day distribution.

FYI, a tapering strategy should be customized to the demands of the target event. In your case, I think you want to have your peak FTP on Oct 8 and that FTP trumps AWC and NM power for your ride. Many tapering strategies result in a loss of FTP but an increase in AWC and NM. IMO, that's not what you want.:D

Normal. Don't worry about it.

This is a big deal! What's your tapering plan? All that matters is your volume and intensity relative to your average volume and intensity of the last few weeks. For example, a 2-week tapering strategy might be week1 = 75% volume, same intensities, week2 = 50% volume, same intensities. Or, you could express it in terms of minutes per week at L4, L5, L6. I think the distribution of volume and intensity by day is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is the volume and intensity for the week, not the day by day distribution.

FYI, a tapering strategy should be customized to the demands of the target event. In your case, I think you want to have your peak FTP on Oct 8 and that FTP trumps AWC and NM power for your ride. Many tapering strategies result in a loss of FTP but an increase in AWC and NM. IMO, that's not what you want.:DSeems like you are suggesting a 2 week taper. Fine, but I didn't do that for the century back in June except for reducing the mileage on the Sunday before the Sunday of the race. And that was 10 times harder than the Biwa course which as I pointed out before is mostly flat. As I said, next week (the penultimate week) I intend to train hard then start the taper from next Friday. You think I'd be better tapering steadily from the beginning of next week, do you?
Afterthought. And you advise, if I read it correctly to just do L4 -yes?

Seems like you are suggesting a 2 week taper. Fine, but I didn't do that for the century back in June except for reducing the mileage on the Sunday before the Sunday of the race. And that was 10 times harder than the Biwa course which as I pointed out before is mostly flat. As I said, next week (the penultimate week) I intend to train hard then start the taper from next Friday. You think I'd be better tapering steadily from the beginning of next week, do you?
Afterthought. And you advise, if I read it correctly to just do L4 -yes?I am asking you what your taper plan is rather than suggesting a taper plan at this point. I was simply giving you an example of how one might characterize a taper plan. I am saying that what matters is your volume and intensity for the 2 weeks prior to your target event relative to your average volume/intensity in the several weeks prior to the taper. What doesn't matter is how you distribute that volume/intensity by day. So, I ask again, what is your taper plan?

You think I'd be better tapering steadily from the beginning of next week, do you? Afterthought. And you advise, if I read it correctly to just do L4 -yes?I'm not ready to say what I think your tapering plan should be. I'm not being cute here, I'm still getting up to speed with Performance Manager and am studying my own numbers leading up to the Mt. Charleston ride. I may conclude that my own tapering plan was lousy. I'll be ready to weigh in on the plan after I do my homework. At this point, I am just asking you what your plan is, given that you are, as you say, a "feel" guy. Anyway, given that you are a feel guy, you are probably not terribly interested in what I come up with since it will be numbers-based.:D

I'm not ready to say what I think your tapering plan should be. I'm not being cute here, I'm still getting up to speed with Performance Manager and am studying my own numbers leading up to the Mt. Charleston ride. I may conclude that my own tapering plan was lousy. I'll be ready to weigh in on the plan after I do my homework. At this point, I am just asking you what your plan is, given that you are, as you say, a "feel" guy. Anyway, given that you are a feel guy, you are probably not terribly interested in what I come up with since it will be numbers-based.:DRight, I've just woken up and it's 2 am in the morning here so I'l be brief.

Sunday - 6 hour tough mountain course ride.

Monday -off

Tues - L4 workout at 250Watts (held as long as poss)

Wed - again L4 @ 250W (ignoring VO2Max session)

Thurs -off

Fri - L4 @ 250 Watts

Sunday - 1st Oct - usual 57k course with plenty of climbs (tempo)

Tues - you suggested 50% volume high intensity, so I thought maybe
1x10 @ 260W

Wed - rest day but 300 watts as long as I can hold it. Just to see if I can do it should I need to on the day.

Thurs - 1x10 @ 250/260W

Frid - 30 min @ 200W just to keep the legs oiled.

Sat - off

Sun - burn up as many 5000 dollar bikes and Adonis calves as poss. :D

Back to bed - speak to you tomorrow.;) TYSON

Tues - you suggested 50% volume high intensity, so I thought maybe 1x10 @ 260WWhat's the famous quote in the Paul Newman movie, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Let me repeat, I'm not suggesting anything at this point about tapering. I'm still looking at my own tapering plan for my 2 hr ride last week. I have no idea where I'll come out after looking at some data. I could end up recommending that you do 100% of your normal weekly volumes and intensities. I could end up recommending that you do 100% of your L4 volumes and 50% of your L5 volumes, or vice versa. I'll tell you what I recommend before you need to know.

What's the famous quote in the Paul Newman movie, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Let me repeat, I'm not suggesting anything at this point about tapering. I'm still looking at my own tapering plan for my 2 hr ride last week. I have no idea where I'll come out after looking at some data. I could end up recommending that you do 100% of your normal weekly volumes and intensities. I could end up recommending that you do 100% of your L4 volumes and 50% of your L5 volumes, or vice versa. I'll tell you what I recommend before you need to know.
I semi-based my taper on what you said here.


I think you want to have your peak FTP on Oct 8 and that FTP trumps AWC and NM power for your ride. Many tapering strategies result in a loss of FTP but an increase in AWC and NM. IMO, that's not what you want

I read your lips! But I await your final recommendation with bated breath. :D TYSON

OK, not sure what "bated breath" is, but also awaiting RD well-researched taper advice here. Your proposed taper sounds like a killer program to me. EG, doing 300W as long as you can hold it... on the "Rest Day" doesn't sound like rest for me. That alone would probably have me down for a two-day recovery.

I do appreciate your motivation for the event. There is something uniquely satisfying about passing younger riders, particularly those on fancier bikes. Some of the strongest climbers here like to ride old-school steel or AL bikes just to further humilate the rest of us who've spent high dollars on the latest wonderbikes :)

OK, not sure what "bated breath" is, but also awaiting RD well-researched taper advice here. Your proposed taper sounds like a killer program to me. EG, doing 300W as long as you can hold it... on the "Rest Day" doesn't sound like rest for me. That alone would probably have me down for a two-day recovery.

I do appreciate your motivation for the event. There is something uniquely satisfying about passing younger riders, particularly those on fancier bikes. Some of the strongest climbers here like to ride old-school steel or AL bikes just to further humilate the rest of us who've spent high dollars on the latest wonderbikes :)
On the other end of the sprectrum you could try not tapering. Take the 2 days before easy and just don't do anything crazy/stupid within the week before. The Benefits of this approach are that you definately won't lose fitness and you definately won't gain weight. You'll be pretty fresh the day of. Remember recovery is an expotential function. So you reach diminishing returns on freshness pretty quickly. Fitness loss seems to occur right near that point too.

YMMV of course but to me it seems that the super short taper is fail proof in that you can't end up any worse and could gain some from it.

Also, I'd wager that the length of taper is best decided based on how close you've been to your personal breaking point in the recent weeks/months. And when I say breaking point- I consider that to be the point that you could be at if you were going full time on the bike. 1. When you view ie. lack of time as a limit your body just sees undertraining. So I think that in order for a longer taper to be good you would need to have truly buried yourself for a couple good blocks.

I wouldn't do a long taper if your training is linear (yours is). Linear implies sustainable so you shouldn't have any truly deep recovering to do.


YMMV but you can see that myself and the act of tapering have had a falling out (no pun intended because that's what my fitness did) this so that is one of the major things that Im changing in next years program plus not tapering long allows you to be good in a lot more races throughout the year.

On the other end of the sprectrum you could try not tapering. Take the 2 days before easy and just don't do anything crazy/stupid within the week before. The Benefits of this approach are that you definately won't lose fitness and you definately won't gain weight. You'll be pretty fresh the day of. Remember recovery is an expotential function. So you reach diminishing returns on freshness pretty quickly. Fitness loss seems to occur right near that point too.

YMMV of course but to me it seems that the super short taper is fail proof in that you can't end up any worse and could gain some from it.

Also, I'd wager that the length of taper is best decided based on how close you've been to your personal breaking point in the recent weeks/months. And when I say breaking point- I consider that to be the point that you could be at if you were going full time on the bike. 1. When you view ie. lack of time as a limit your body just sees undertraining. So I think that in order for a longer taper to be good you would need to have truly buried yourself for a couple good blocks.

I wouldn't do a long taper if your training is linear (yours is). Linear implies sustainable so you shouldn't have any truly deep recovering to do.


YMMV but you can see that myself and the act of tapering have had a falling out (no pun intended because that's what my fitness did) this so that is one of the major things that Im changing in next years program plus not tapering long allows you to be good in a lot more races throughout the year.
I assume you were addressing me GW, not DHK.:) If you were thanks for your input. I agree with you on the short taper, I think you definitely lose your edge with a long taper, and perhaps your FTP etc. will show a decline. I realize with training, it doesn't take that long to get back to where you were, but why waste valuable training time trying to get back where it would have been better to have maintained your fitness levels.
I just regard the upcoming 150Km event as just another training session - another step on the ladder I'm climbing.

Today did my final long ride before Lake Biwa at 110 km. It was a torturous mountain ride which might seem a strange thing to do considering the Biwa ride is mostly flat, however, as I was still going strong at 97km before cooling down, the Biwa ride should be a piece of cake.
One not so funny thing happened today; after climbing the worst hill, a winding 6km with quite a bit of 10-13% sections, I took a different route down. This was a single track road which descended for some 10km with 5332 bends - hairy!:eek: Anyway, at the bottom I turned right instead of left, and after 12km arrived back at the base of the climb I'd just done.:( Luckily there was an easier climb out further down the valley.:D

One not so funny thing happened today; after climbing the worst hill, a winding 6km with quite a bit of 10-13% sections, I took a different route down. This was a single track road which descended for some 10km with 5332 bends - hairy!:eek: Anyway, at the bottom I turned right instead of left, and after 12km arrived back at the base of the climb I'd just done.:( Luckily there was an easier climb out further down the valley.:DI hate it when that happens. Why is it that we always make our wrong turns downhill or downwind, resulting in having to undo the error by riding uphill or upwind? Is there a Murphy's Law of Cycling?

I hate it when that happens. Why is it that we always make our wrong turns downhill or downwind, resulting in having to undo the error by riding uphill or upwind? Is there a Murphy's Law of Cycling?
Yes there is. What goes up must come down - twice if you make a mistake.:D