It's killing me but..........

Since 2001, over 90,000 cyclist's have joined Cycling Forums to discuss topics from general cycling to equipment, training, racing and travel or vacation destinations (especially in europe during the tour de france). We also feature an great deals in our online store, 100's of articles, classifieds and product reviews.

Hi Jim,

I'm working up a set of stats on my training leading up to the Mt. Charleston race as an FYI for those interested. It will include CTL and ATL plus duration and TSS by level (L1-L7) by week for the 11-12 weeks leading up to the race. It won't be posted as "the best way to train for an event," but rather "one athlete's approach to his training for a key event." I may be the only person in the world who knows my duration and TSS by level, so some may find the data interesting.
RDO,

I would Love to see that when you are finished.

Everything that I have seen from you has been golden. I am sure this will be as well...

Jim

RDO,

I would Love to see that when you are finished.

Everything that I have seen from you has been golden. I am sure this will be as well...

JimActually, the only things that I expect to produce that are in any way unique on this topic are two. First, my observations and interpretation of the CTL and ATL numbers as they relate to my training objectives for the event. It will be my first in-depth exploration of Performance Manager and my insights may be helpful to some. Two, as you know, I have been tracking for some time the internal structure of my training regimen, with a very specific focus on quality minutes at L4-L7. I have been a bit perplexed about what to do with my data for some time, but it is coming into sharper focus now. Basically, I think that total training stress and the quality of that training stress are separate things. It sounds sort of obvious, but clearly 150 TSS points at L3 is not the same (from an adaptation perspective) as 150 TSS points of which 75 points is L4. I guess I have been wrestling with three concepts: volume, intensity and quality. Volume and intensity are captured by TSS, IF, CTL and ATL. It's the quality concept that I have been unwilling to let go of, as reflected to date in my data as simply total minutes by level. Well, I have taken that to the next step and I now compute TSS by level (because 40 mins at 105%FTP is clearly not the same as 40mins at 91%FTP even though they are both L4). So, all of this will be in my "report" and I'll comment on what I think it means.

Tyson, IIRC you are ~30 days from your target event, right? Anyway, it doesn't matter whether it's exactly 30 days. The point is that you are entering an important phase of preparation for your event. It all has to do with managing your total training stress to peak at exactly the right time. Now, I'm going to make a suggestion that you're not going to like. I recommend that you buy a copy of CyclingPeaks WKO+ (the latest version) http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/. This version has the much discussed Performance Manager as discussed here http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanager.asp. This feature alone justifies buying CP. This isn't a small addition to the toolkit of the serious cyclist. This is huge! This feature takes the issue of managing one's training from anecdotes to science-based precision. And, just think how your cycling friends will swoon when you start throwing around your CTL and ATL numbers along with FTP, VO2MAX, AWC, et al.

Now, for your obvious questions. Question #1: But, I don't have a PM and CP is for those with a PM. Not true, all you need are the workout files. You can create these within CP or with a small console app that I built for precisely this purpose http://www.cyclingforums.com/t312293.html. I think my app is more powerful, but you can decide for yourself. BTW, I have a new and iimproved version of my app and I'll post it to that same thread later today (I have to contact PSUCycling and get his permission to replace the current version with the new version). Question #2: But, I'm not a math type. It doesn't matter. You don't have to be a math type to understand CTL and ATL. These terms will soon become a part of our daily vocabulary for those of us who train with power. This will put you on the leading edge of the power revolution.

Once you've installed WKO+ and created workout files for your training rides the last few months, we can talk seriously about your workouts during the next month.

Cheers.:DRD, I've thought long and hard over what you've laid out above, and this is how I genuinely feel.

As you know I'm not a lover of formulae, graphs, curves etc., and although I've managed to get my head around a few acronyms in order for us to communicate at a very basic level, I honestly don't want to get into calculating TSS, CTL, ATL and IF. I don't want to know about AP, NP etc. etc.

Now you know how you love to compare things - for example the iBike with the SRM power meters, and as you say, when the 2 are comparable, then and only then would you consider using the iBike.

Well this is what I propose. You continue with your calculations, graphs etc., and I shall continue feeling my way. This will afford you an excellent opportunity to compare 2 entirely different approaches.

I'm aware that you have a good head start on me, (and are a few years younger and perhaps have a superior genetic makeup :rolleyes: ) however, that's fine with me. All we need now is some sort of yardstick by which we can gauge/gage our individual progress. May I suggest we meet this time next year at the base of Mt. Charleston, if you get my drift.

Meanwhile, for any followers of this thread still lingering, if you are OK RD, I would still like to occasionally post my figures (FTP, VO2Max, AWC) - at least until (and if ever) I reach the magic 1x20 @ 300Watts.:D TYSON

May I suggest we meet this time next year at the base of Mt. Charleston, if you get my drift.
http://www.tk421.net/gallery/sounds/gbu.wav

http://www.tk421.net/gallery/sounds/gbu.wav
LOL Is that the theme from Gunfight at the OK Corral or was it The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?

LOL Is that the theme from Gunfight at the OK Corral or was it The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly...

Which of you two is which...? :D

Hey guys, just checking in to find out what you 2 are still talking about.... :) Well this is what I propose. You continue with your calculations, graphs etc., and I shall continue feeling my way. This will afford you an excellent opportunity to compare 2 entirely different approaches.
Heh, 2 entirely different approaches? :confused: I've skipped ahead from about page 12 to page 50 of this thread, but how does going it alone in the last month of a 9-month program constitute an entirely different approach? :D

BTW, nice job on your progress Tyson. It just goes to show what someone can do with copious amounts of desire and dedication. :)

Well this is what I propose. You continue with your calculations, graphs etc., and I shall continue feeling my way. This will afford you an excellent opportunity to compare 2 entirely different approaches.But, you have been following a calculated, methodical approach. You just haven't been doing the calculations, I have. If you truly want to compare two entirely different approaches, you need to go back to what you were doing in January when you had ~130W and were ready to get off your bike for good.:D

But, you have been following a calculated, methodical approach. You just haven't been doing the calculations, I have. If you truly want to compare two entirely different approaches, you need to go back to what you were doing in January when you had ~130W and were ready to get off your bike for good.:DUsing the word entirely was a mistake, my apologies for that. Shall we say a slightly different approach? I simply meant, yes, I'm happy with training keeping in mind FTP, VO2 max, and AWC. I think it's the refining you are talking about here that is a path along which angels fear to tread;;)

This feature alone justifies buying CP. This isn't a small addition to the toolkit of the serious cyclist. This is huge! This feature takes the issue of managing one's training from anecdotes to science-based precision. And, just think how your cycling friends will swoon when you start throwing around your CTL and ATL numbers along with FTP, VO2MAX, AWC, et al.

and your last sentence sent a shiver down my spine;:D

Once you've installed WKO+ and created workout files for your training rides the last few months,So what am I saying exactly? Instead of employing science-based precision, I shall fine tune by feel. After all, many science based predictions have gone awry where the human element (drive, emotion, desire, persistence, dedication, lethargy, languor, chinks in the armour, disatisfaction, ennui etc.) have not - in fact cannot be factored in. We are not automatons.
What does this mean in practical terms?

EXAMPLE: I comfortably achieved a TSS of 800 for the last 4 weeks, so I should be able to do it this week. But hell, the arguments I've had with the boss/wife/girlfriend have left me drained. I don't feel like training.:(

Example 2: Geez, I've got a 17 mile race up Mt. Charleston in 2 weeks and here I am putting on weight. What's wrong with me, I can't stop eating!
All that precision work, and here I am ruining it.

Well, I came in 50 out of 400 - pretty good eh! But ah, if only I'd been 15 pounds lighter as I know I'm capable of being - what could I have achieved?:(

There you have it. It's very difficult to programme human beings. That is unless your name is Lance of course.
And unless you are totally and utterly obsessed!

Tyson steps down from the podium and awaits the furore.:D

And unless you are totally and utterly obsessed!And you think I'm not????:confused:

*****Will this be a new record for the most posts in one Thread?****** Currently 749 posts, how much longer can it get before the thread breaks :)

Well this is what I propose. You continue with your calculations, graphs etc., and I shall continue feeling my way. This will afford you an excellent opportunity to compare 2 entirely different approaches.Hope this is not the end of a great thread, although, if it is, I'm looking forward to getting some of my life back from not having to catch up with it every few days ;)

Whilst I understand your discomfort at all the graphs and figures, when I think about the fantastic progress you've make over the past 9 months (with much hard work and dedication on your part; but also by following a structured program based on sports science with some number crunching by thrown in by RDo for good measure) I'm a little surprised to see you give up on this approach at this point in time, with your target event just round the corner :confused:

Or perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick (sorry if that's the case) :)

*****Will this be a new record for the most posts in one Thread?****** Currently 749 posts, how much longer can it get before the thread breaks :)
Thread? I thought this was a chat room transcript. :D

But hell, the arguments I've had with the boss/wife/girlfriend have left me drained. I don't feel like training.
Heck, if I had arguments with all three of them, I wouldn't feel like training, either... :D

And you think I'm not????:confused:No you're not RD.;)

Up until just before the Mt. Charleston race, I thought you were from another planet - not like the rest of us mere mortals. But then you very courageously revealed you were Homo Sapiens after all.


I am so mad at myself for not being lighter. I've known for months about this ride and losing weight should be the easiest form of training. I feel like such an incompetent at that part of training.
Incompetence - definitely a human trait.

Then you added:


Frankly, I'm really irritated with myself about this. I'm a pretty disciplined person and I can't understand why I can't just drop my weight at will. What's with this eating thing? It isn't even that much fun. Plus, it costs money. I need to see one of those sports shrinks who teach you to visualize success or something.
Irritation - another human trait.

And finally the coup de grace:

After this race, I'm going to figure out how to get my weight where I want it whatever it takes. If I have to, I'll take all the food out of my house and buy one day's worth of meals at a time .

Over indulgence - a problem that I would guess applies to many of us, and definitely includes me.:D

Paul please don't take offence, at first I was shocked by your revelations, then I realized, hey this guy is like me - he has his weaknesses too and has not been afraid to admit it.

Your admission (and photo;) ) put a human face on all that has been said in this thread. Oops sorry Frenchy - chat room transcript.:D

Finally, I don't see that our slightly different approach to training as being a reason to put an end to this thread. I know I haven't turned out to be your star pupil, but I'm sure there are others out there (lurkers) who have benefitted immensely from all the advice you have given. Personally I'm totally indebted to you for the way you have cajoled me into doing structured training instead of farting in the wind.

I still hope we can meet at the base of Mt. Charleston this time next year.:D Tyson

I still hope we can meet at the base of Mt. Charleston this time next year.:D TysonYou're on. BTW, don't you get your power meter sometime in the next year. IIRC, you get some sort of pension payout at the end of this year and you were thinking of buying a PM. Maybe I have the year wrong. If it is this year-end, I fully expect to see you on a bike with a sparkling new PM (PT SL2.4 or SRM). Oh, wait, hold the presses! I forgot that you're not into numbers, that you're a "feel" guy... so scratch that.:D

You're on. BTW, don't you get your power meter sometime in the next year. IIRC, you get some sort of pension payout at the end of this year and you were thinking of buying a PM. Maybe I have the year wrong. If it is this year-end, I fully expect to see you on a bike with a sparkling new PM (PT SL2.4 or SRM). Oh, wait, hold the presses! I forgot that you're not into numbers, that you're a "feel" guy... so scratch that.:D
Sarcasm is not wit, it is the lowest form of human intellectual integrity. And what's more your obscene insinuations are the constabularation of the point in question.:D
I remembered this from my school days - never understood constabularation (no such word) and in fact didn't understand any of it.;)

I'm 65 next August and shall probably buy a power meter then; simply to see what power I'm generating at any given time. I could well be eating these words, but I don't think I shall be feeding the info into a computer, pouring over the results to see just exactly where I was human.:D

Finally, I don't see that our slightly different approach to training as being a reason to put an end to this thread.I don't know that it has to be the last post of this thread, but I do have a suggestion for a post from you after your October event. I would like to ask you to go back over your notes on your training since January (or just re-read your posts in this thread) and summarize for us what worked for you (in your opinion), both in terms of measurable progress and (most importantly) psychologically. The reason I stress the psychological part is because I think it's fairly easy to figure out what sorts of workouts result in increases in sustainable power. But, when we settle into doing the hard work week to week, it's not so easy. I think at least one factor stands out in this thread and that is your continued commitment and determination, especially during times when you felt you were making no progress. So, after you come back down to earth after having the ride of your life in October, how about netting out the 9 months for us?:D

I don't know that it has to be the last post of this thread, but I do have a suggestion for a post from you after your October event. I would like to ask you to go back over your notes on your training since January (or just re-read your posts in this thread) and summarize for us what worked for you (in your opinion), both in terms of measurable progress and (most importantly) psychologically. The reason I stress the psychological part is because I think it's fairly easy to figure out what sorts of workouts result in increases in sustainable power. But, when we settle into doing the hard work week to week, it's not so easy. I think at least one factor stands out in this thread and that is your continued commitment and determination, especially during times when you felt you were making no progress. So, after you come back down to earth after having the ride of your life in October, how about netting out the 9 months for us?:DI don't need to go back over my notes to know what worked for me psychologically, I can tell you that right here and now.

Just the simple fact that I had expressed a determination to first achieve the immediate goal of 200W FTP. Sitting at home and telling myself this was my goal, might not have worked. Why? Because I hadn't declared my intention publicly, and although the internet is impersonal and no one knows you from Adam, you still feel some sort of obligation, nay necessity to prove you can do it.
To fail would mean "public shame" albeit anonymous - guys will say, what a plonker, he couldn't get anywhere near his stated target.

So 200 Watts came and went. I then set a target of 1x20 @ 300Watts.

I know people are still watching and waiting to see me fail/succeed. Although I think I will be forgiven by most for not reaching 300Watts, after all there's a hell of a difference between 200 and 300Watts, I still feel I have to give it my best shot. Often on the trainer in the gym I think, I've got to do this - I said I would and people expect it.

Continuing with the psychology behind training, I think last week was the first week when I let the body know who was boss; telling the legs they are going to keep going whether they like it or not. You have to train hard to train hard.;)

I said 250Watts suddenly became relatively easy. Taking that statement to its logical conclusion, I now feel after Lake Biwa I have to move on, i.e. 260Watt L4 intervals. I know to guys with 300 watt plus FTPs, my figures are laughable - another reason for bettering them!(the figures that is) :D TYSON

I said 250Watts suddenly became relatively easy. Taking that statement to its logical conclusion, I now feel after Lake Biwa I have to move on, i.e. 260Watt L4 intervals. I know to guys with 300 watt plus FTPs, my figures are laughable - another reason for bettering them!(the figures that is) :D TYSONThe only people who would laugh at 250-260W 20min L4 efforts are those so genetically gifted that they should be spending all of their available time thanking their parents for their genetic gifts and therefore they have no time for laughing.

BTW, just to put a little arithmetic to the issue, 300W is 2.07x 250W (physiologically). Not exactly a small leap. But, I think you can do it.:D