It's killing me but..........

Since 2001, over 90,000 cyclist's have joined Cycling Forums to discuss topics from general cycling to equipment, training, racing and travel or vacation destinations (especially in europe during the tour de france). We also feature an great deals in our online store, 100's of articles, classifieds and product reviews.

Can we really end this thread RD?Well, it's your thread. So, when it has met your original objectives, you can choose to end it. I think what differentiates the thread is that it goes full circle. You frame your questions well, you aren't hestitant to say, "I don't understand," you're willing to try things to see how they work out, you're enthusiastic about training and increasing your power and you share your results. I don't doubt that many get value out of your chronicle of your quest. Because what you want is what everyone wants, more power. So, your issues are pretty mainstream, regardless of what your starting point was.

the original idea behind this thread was to help a silly old twit climb hills faster and stay with or pass his much younger riding partner. Within weeks now, there will be absolutely no contest vis-à-vis the above.That's cool. Now, that would be a great post, the "Duel in the Mountains, Part II."

Let's review the situation after LakeBiwa.Good by me.

BTW, today I led my club on a ride up Mt. Charleston. Actually, it was two rides, with the A ride starting at the bottom and the B ride starting 5.5 miles up the hill. I was amazed at the turnout. We had ~30 riders, many of whom had never climbed the hill before. Weather was perfect (sunny, 75F at the start and a cool 60F at the top, light crosswinds). Everybody had a great time, even those who needed ~3hrs to make the climb. I guess it goes to show that people enjoy challenging rides if they have companionship. I have a few more challenging rides up my sleeve. Guess I'll have to schedule them.:D

BTW, today I led my club on a ride up Mt. Charleston. Actually, it was two rides, with the A ride starting at the bottom and the B ride starting 5.5 miles up the hill. I was amazed at the turnout. We had ~30 riders, many of whom had never climbed the hill before. Weather was perfect (sunny, 75F at the start and a cool 60F at the top, light crosswinds). Everybody had a great time, even those who needed ~3hrs to make the climb. I guess it goes to show that people enjoy challenging rides if they have companionship. I have a few more challenging rides up my sleeve. Guess I'll have to schedule them.:D
C'mon RD don't be bashful - more info please. At what speed are you climbing the hill at the moment etc.?:D

C'mon RD don't be bashful - more info please. At what speed are you climbing the hill at the moment etc.?:DI honestly don't know. I wasn't on my bike today. I lent my bike to a visiting cyclist and test rode a TT bike without a power meter or in fact any other instrumentation. Was just looking for a nice 120min L4 effort. Time was 2:08, which was fine for today. It was more of a mental effort than a physical one, although 128 mins at L4 is still a pretty fair workout. The long L4 rides I have been doing really paid off today, as I was relaxed the whole ride. Just cruisin'.

I honestly don't know. I wasn't on my bike today. I lent my bike to a visiting cyclist and test rode a TT bike without a power meter or in fact any other instrumentation. Was just looking for a nice 120min L4 effort. Time was 2:08, which was fine for today. It was more of a mental effort than a physical one, although 128 mins at L4 is still a pretty fair workout. The long L4 rides I have been doing really paid off today, as I was relaxed the whole ride. Just cruisin'.
Is it possible to cruise at L4? Do you think you might just have been doing L3?:rolleyes:

How do you judge, especially not having a powermeter?;)

Was just looking for a nice 120min L4 effort. Time was 2:08, which was fine for today. It was more of a mental effort than a physical one, although 128 mins at L4 is still a pretty fair workout. The long L4 rides I have been doing really paid off today, as I was relaxed the whole ride. Just cruisin'.
Help me understand this. An L4 workout is--by definition--done at 91% to 105% of your one-hour-fully-motivated-flat-out-no-stoplights-or-turns power, isn't it? If you're saying you were able to "just cruise" at that level for over two hours then I'm going to go out on a limb (regardless of how much experience with this stuff you seem to have) and say that your FTP is higher than you think it is or I fundamentally misunderstand the notion of FTP.

--Steve

Is it possible to cruise at L4? Do you think you might just have been doing L3?:rolleyes:No.

How do you judge, especially not having a powermeter?;)Basically, by the feel of the force of the downstrokes. Plus, a riding buddy with a PM was right behind me for the first 1/3rd of the course and I asked him once during the climb how many watts he was climbing at. Then, I made a mental adjustment for our weight differences and I was right about where I thought I was. But, then I was basically riding solo for the last 2/3rds of the course. The challenge of this type of ride is getting up near the edge and then feathering power ever so slightly. Plus, the gradients on this ride vary quite a bit and the optimal pacing plan is to add a bit of power on the steeper sections and back off a bit on the shallower sections. That's where my PM would have come in handy, as I had to manage this by feel.

No.

Basically, by the feel of the force of the downstrokes. Plus, a riding buddy with a PM was right behind me for the first 1/3rd of the course and I asked him once during the climb how many watts he was climbing at. Then, I made a mental adjustment for our weight differences and I was right about where I thought I was. But, then I was basically riding solo for the last 2/3rds of the course. The challenge of this type of ride is getting up near the edge and then feathering power ever so slightly. Plus, the gradients on this ride vary quite a bit and the optimal pacing plan is to add a bit of power on the steeper sections and back off a bit on the shallower sections. That's where my PM would have come in handy, as I had to manage this by feel.
So the rest went off and left you to fend for yourself at the back.
Not very nice of them.:D

Help me understand this. An L4 workout is--by definition--done at 91% to 105% of your one-hour-fully-motivated-flat-out-no-stoplights-or-turns power, isn't it? If you're saying you were able to "just cruise" at that level for over two hours then I'm going to go out on a limb (regardless of how much experience with this stuff you seem to have) and say that your FTP is higher than you think it is or I fundamentally misunderstand the notion of FTP.
You have the definition of L4 correct. And, for me, 91%FTP is pretty close to my limit for 2hrs. There is no universal definition of one's 2hr MP as it relates to their 1hr MP and I have been anticipating that my focus on long L4 rides would eventually raise my 2hr MP relative to my 1hr MP. Maybe it has or maybe, as you suggest, my FTP has increased. I'm due to re-test FTP soon, so I'll find out. I have ramped up my training in the last couple of months, focusing on long L4 efforts. But, it did honestly feel like a "cruise" today. Sometimes one just locks in on a zone and one can maintain it for a long time. That's what happened today. I just locked in on an intensity and kept it there. I actually think I could have maintained it longer than 2hrs (at least today).

I'm watching the playoff between Woods and Cink. They're off to the 3rd playoff hole. Nerve-racking!:eek:

So the rest went off and left you to fend for yourself at the back. Not very nice of them.:DNot exactly.:D Although 4 did beat me to the summit (one guy on a fixed gear), all considerably younger I might add (and all but one considerably lighter -- e.g., 20lbs). The guy I'm envious of is a little flyweight named Chuck who weighs all of 120lbs dripping wet. I'm really going to get serious about my weight now. I'd like to be at my 30 y.o. racing weight on 9/16.:cool:

Not exactly.:D Although 4 did beat me to the summit (one guy on a fixed gear), all considerably younger I might add (and all but one considerably lighter -- e.g., 20lbs). The guy I'm envious of is a little flyweight named Chuck who weighs all of 120lbs dripping wet. I'm really going to get serious about my weight now. I'd like to be at my 30 y.o. racing weight on 9/16.:cool:Looks like I'll definitely have to come out there next year and defend the honour of the moldy oldies. The things I have to do -tut! :rolleyes:
I do need a 2 hour warm-up though before tackling the above as I seem to go better after a couple of hours of riding.;)

Just one question RD if you have the time. I tend to ignore HR for the most part when training now as it seems that is not a particularly good indicator of what's actually going on in the old ticker anyway.

However, with regard to MHR, they say subtract your age from 220bpm and that will be pretty close. My question is:- Is it possible for this figure to be way out?
The reason I ask is, for someone my age (64) that would give me a MHR of 156bpm plus or minus. As I said the other day, in the the last 15/20 seconds of the last 2 minute interval my HR was 167! This points to my MHR being somewhere in the region of 170bpm. Is this possible and what do you think your MHR is? Oh, and does having a high (for one's age) MHR have any practical benefit?

Looks like I'll definitely have to come out there next year and defend the honour of the moldy oldies. The things I have to do -tut! :rolleyes:
I do need a 2 hour warm-up though before tackling the above as I seem to go better after a couple of hours of riding.;) I keep telling you, you're invited. Our weather's great, our rides are great, and if I know you're coming I'll post a special ride for my club. In fact, that's why I didn't ride my bike today. A member of this forum (who will go nameless unless and until he chooses to identify himself) was in LV for a wedding. He stayed over an extra day and I posted the Mt. Charleston ride just for him as he had heard about the famous ride and wanted to give it a try. He didn't bring his bike, but we are close enough in bike size so I let him use my bike and I took the opportunity to test ride a TT bike.

Just one question RD if you have the time. I tend to ignore HR for the most part when training now as it seems that is not a particularly good indicator of what's actually going on in the old ticker anyway.

However, with regard to MHR, they say subtract your age from 220bpm and that will be pretty close. My question is:- Is it possible for this figure to be way out?
The reason I ask is, for someone my age (64) that would give me a MHR of 156bpm plus or minus. As I said the other day, in the the last 15/20 seconds of the last 2 minute interval my HR was 167! This points to my MHR being somewhere in the region of 170bpm. Is this possible and what do you think your MHR is? Oh, and does having a high (for one's age) MHR have any practical benefit?The 220-age benchmark may be valid for a large population, but the individual variance is huge. According to the formula, my MHR is 157 yet I know that it is at least 165. The reason I say that it is at least 165 is because I have seen 165 on my rides, especially if I do a VO2MAX interval or a short (e.g., 10min) L4 interval at 105+%FTP and then push it in the last couple of minutes to 200+%FTP (and especially if it is hot). It's very hard to push oneself to one's MHR, so your MHR is probably a few beats above the highest you have ever seen. So, yes, it's entirely possible that your MHR is in the vicinity of 170bpm.:D

Maybe you could do a timeline summary of your levels before,
what kind of training strategy and methods and how you progressed over time
and what were the key things you can identify that you trained specifically in your case
which obviously may not work for others but at least what your training targeted.
Also what tests if any your would do to measure milestones in training.
Sorry, have just spotted your post - didn't check the previous page.:o

I know it is a hell of a lot to read, but all of your questions have been answered in this thread starting from day 1 at the end of January. Of course you don't have to read every post - just the pertinent ones.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but am in the middle of proofreading a long Toyota manual at the moment with a strict deadline. Cheers! TYSON:)

I think that 220 should be classified for person of certain lifestyle traits
, I am 35, so my MHR should be 185,
yet I have seen 210 and when playing soccer it can regularly jump up to 190+


The 220-age benchmark may be valid for a large population, but the individual variance is huge. According to the formula, my MHR is 157 yet I know that it is at least 165. The reason I say that it is at least 165 is because I have seen 165 on my rides, especially if I do a VO2MAX interval or a short (e.g., 10min) L4 interval at 105+%FTP and then push it in the last couple of minutes to 200+%FTP (and especially if it is hot). It's very hard to push oneself to one's MHR, so your MHR is probably a few beats above the highest you have ever seen. So, yes, it's entirely possible that your MHR is in the vicinity of 170bpm.:D

Just can't seem to get these VO2Max workouts togther. I'm going to make a definite excuse and put it down to the hot weather and high humidity.


On July 6 the VO2Max workout went like this;

1x5 @ 280W
3x5 @ 270W

On July13

1x5 @ 280W
2x5 @ 260W
1x2 @ 260W

Today

2x5 @ 275W
1x3 @ 275W
1x2 @ 270W

That was me knackered!:(

As you don't like guessing RD, I'll tell you what I've changed in my gym sessions. You've often said I should increase my volume. Now I took that to mean an increase in the amount of interval work. Perhaps that is exactly what you did mean. However, I got to thinking; everyday when I'd done the intervals, be they 2min, 5min, or 20min, I would pack up and go home. It occurred to me that I wasn't actually spending enough time in the saddle.

So I started spinning after my interval workout - starting at 170W and working my way up to 230/240W and back down again, dwelling for 2 to 3 mins at each 10W level. Then depending on the time and how I feel, I just keep pedalling away. (try to do 1hour 30mins but sometimes get bored stiff.
220W and below I could pedal effortlessly all day.)

On page 1 of this thread Fergie posted something that convinced me this was the way to go.

It also makes sense when you consider the training of Pro riders who do a high volume of L4 training then will do another 2-3 hours of L2-L3. Why? Because that's what their racng is all about.Maybe I'm not making the best use of available time but.............TYSON

Just can't seem to get these VO2Max workouts togther.Don't worry about it. Do them at 260W. You'll be getting plenty of benefit even at 260W.

It occurred to me that I wasn't actually spending enough time in the saddle.Aha! Yes, that is what I have felt for months. I don't think you need to drop down below 220W for your extra time in the saddle. It will take a few weeks, but the extra volume will kick in eventually and all the efforts will get easier. I'm just beginning to reap the benefits of my extra volume the last couple of months. I can now sustain for ~2 hrs efforts that I struggled to maintain for 20mins only a couple of months ago. And I'm still almost a month away from my target events.

.

Aha! Yes, that is what I have felt for months. I don't think you need to drop down below 220W for your extra time in the saddle.
Now, why did I think you were going to say that?!?!:rolleyes:

I've asked you before and I'll ask you again - does your soul have no mercy?:D

I was enjoying 170/180/190W etc. What has happened to the fun that once was in my cycling? Ahhh, the halcyon days of cruising and a 'muising'!

OK, you win - Take me back to the rack Jack.:( TYSON

Well, started stepping up the Sunday ride mileage in preperation for the Lake Biwa 150km ride in October.

Increased from 57km to 87km. At a 52% increase I know this doesn't follow the recommended 10% per week but.... Still felt very easy.;)

Lennyk wrote:


Also what tests if any you would do to measure milestones in training .

No real milestones per se, however, last Autumn I stopped on a high bridge to admire the view and another cyclist came by. Being naturally competitive I chased after him. For about 3km he cruised at 30kmh with me glued to his back wheel puffing and panting. (I had done about 40km already that morning with some stiff climbs) After drafting for 3km, luckily he turned off and I let out a sigh of relief as I don't think I could of held him much longer.

This morning after having done 70km with tougher climbing than the above course - on the same road I was effortlessly doing 36/38kph solo.
Now that to me is progress and makes all the effort on the trainer in the gym worthwhile. And what's more exciting is, I'm only beginning and if you want to talk about milestones, then I guess 45km plus on the same stretch of road solo would be something to celebrate.:D

The weather is starting to cool down (early morning at least). If my theory is correct then 20minute intervals etc. in the gym should see a substantial increase in Wattage.

Watch this space!;)

The weather is starting to cool down (early morning at least). If my theory is correct then 20minute intervals etc. in the gym should see a substantial increase in Wattage.

Watch this space!;)GET IT!!!

pretty impressive, this kind of thing is giving me a lot of hope for potential improvement with using my indoor trainer with power meter