It's killing me but..........

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Tyson wrote:

Sounds to me like you're the power hungry monster Curlew.

Yes, you and RD have given me quite a taste for the stuff!! :eek:

Tyson said:

I think the problem is, in my case I don't do enough actual racing. All I seem to be doing is preparing for god knows what.

Going fast on your bike is hard, but what is even harder for most people, I think, is getting yourself out the door often enough and then training hard and intelligently enough so you achieve measurable gains that inspire you to get out the door some more. You do this hard part of getting out the door and training hard so well.

For me, having a race every few weeks helps me get out the door for a hard ride and it motivates me to read later all in an effort to train more effectively so I can get faster. Look at the the kind of training effort the 9/16 hillclimb has drawn out of RD!! There's a goldmine of motivational energy that some people get from racing and this might be useful in your drive to reach 300 watts. I just didn't want you to think that you had to reach 300 watts before you would enjoy and benefit from a race. Getting to 300 watts is such an amazing feat. To reach this, people like you and me are going to need all of the help we can get. The excitement, camaradarie, colors, sights and sounds of the races creates a wind at my back that I feel whenever I am wavering, doubtful or confused about whether or not I am going to head out and train.

Dandelions in Wind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUex3JZhtms) Watch the dandelion in the part of the video that starts at 1:44 and ends at 1:54.

On to 300 watts? Together?

LOL RD, you're not seeking sympathy for having to climb for 90-120 mins, are you? ;)Sympathy? No way. I'm looking forward to it! I'm counting the days. And, fortunately, Performance Manager was released just in time to use it to tweak my last month of preparation. One of main things I am doing is preparing myself mentally for up to 120 mins of continuous efforts at the L4 level. You know that feeling you get when you're 10mins into a 20min L4 effort? You know, when you look at the clock and say to yourself, "Okay, we're halfway home. Now, just focus on the last half." I'm learning to defer that feeling until 60mins.

Getting back to the hill climb, I'm sure you'll do well. I only wish I could be there with you. This year however, I'm not going to be strong enough to join you in Las Vegas, so I've put off my trip till next year. Can non-American citizens join the race btw?Sure. All you need is a USCF license, but you can get a 1-day license when you register for the race.

Started off at 300 Watts but after 2 minutes quickly changed the workout to an AWC session. On reflection I think I chickened out too early, because after that I did 290 Watts for 2mins. (again chickening out of repeating it). Then I did 6x2mins @ 280 Watts. In the second minute of every 280W interval I thought this is the last one but kept going for the full 6.
That is why I think I stopped the 300W interval too early. It's just a question of ignoring what the brain is telling you to do.That's a good session and you're right about learning to ignore what your brain (or, more specifically, your leg muscles) are telling you to do -- stop.

Btw, what happened to your century at 20mph - is it still on?Absolutely! We deferred the final practice rides and the final ride until the fall due to the temps. We need a total of ~6 hrs of daylight and there's no way to complete the ride before temps get into the 100s until Sept. I have found a good course (flat and reasonably protected from the wind) and have a plan to improve communications (2-way radios for ~4 of the key team members). I have recruited 6 "horses" (guys who can basically ride a 5hr century solo) and I'll take up to 12 others. I've ridden the course myself several times to see what it takes to average 20mph with typical winds (~15mph). It takes 225W to average 20mph riding on the hoods, solo. That means I can easily keep the average under 200W other than the guy on front. All of my "horses" can pull at 250W all day. So, we're pretty well set. I'll post a thread on the ride when we're done. It's been fun (finding the course, solving the communications problem, recruiting the riders).:D

I know this may be a bit off topic, but how do you figure out what your levels are?

I know this may be a bit off topic, but how do you figure out what your levels are?
Hi Jacob.

If you go back to the very post of this thread, you'll see my figures were all over the place. RD guessed my FT (functional threshold = a wattage you can hold for one hour with the last 10-15 minutes or so perhaps being hard but not impossible) was about 130 Watts. Coincidentally he was spot on. You might have to make more than one attempt to find your FT, but don't do it when you're fatigued. Once you've established your FT, all your 10/20/30 minute interval training follows on from there. To decide at what %, 85-120% of your FT to do your intervals at, opinions vary and you'll have to read around. I think most opinions on this subject are voiced in the first few pages of this thread.

Best of luck with your training. Keep us posted on your progress.
(As long as you don't exceed my figures!:D )
Cheers! TYSON

http://www.lonympics.co.uk/fantasy/cycling.htm (http://www.lonympics.co.uk/fantasy/cycling.htm) A game about the Tour De France, where you can win the Yellow Jersey

RD wrote:

Sympathy? No way. I'm looking forward to it! I'm counting the days. And, fortunately, Performance Manager was released just in time to use it to tweak my last month of preparation. One of main things I am doing is preparing myself mentally for up to 120 mins of continuous efforts at the L4 level. You know that feeling you get when you're 10mins into a 20min L4 effort? You know, when you look at the clock and say to yourself, "Okay, we're halfway home. Now, just focus on the last half." I'm learning to defer that feeling until 60mins.
I think I could defer that feeling longer if I were out on the bike. There's something soul destroying about continuously doing interval training in the gym. The only thing that keeps me going sometimes, is the thought that all my hard work will transfer to the bike on my Sunday ride in the mountains.



Sure. All you need is a USCF license, but you can get a 1-day license when you register for the race.
Thanks for that info. I look forward nextyear to RapDaddyo versus Tyson in the "THRILLER ON THE HILLER".
This year would be a "no contest" but I'm working on it.:(



Absolutely! We deferred the final practice rides and the final ride until the fall due to the temps. We need a total of ~6 hrs of daylight and there's no way to complete the ride before temps get into the 100s until Sept. I have found a good course (flat and reasonably protected from the wind) and have a plan to improve communications (2-way radios for ~4 of the key team members). I have recruited 6 "horses" (guys who can basically ride a 5hr century solo) and I'll take up to 12 others. I've ridden the course myself several times to see what it takes to average 20mph with typical winds (~15mph). It takes 225W to average 20mph riding on the hoods, solo. That means I can easily keep the average under 200W other than the guy on front. All of my "horses" can pull at 250W all day. So, we're pretty well set. I'll post a thread on the ride when we're done. It's been fun (finding the course, solving the communications problem, recruiting the riders).:D
Sounds Awesome RD, especially the bit in bold letters. Where do you find these guys? Anyway, I look forward to hearing about it come September.


I've been away hiking in the Japanese mountains for a couple of days.
I don't think I've read anything about cycling training being beneficial as far as hiking goes. Well I can tell you it definitely is.

Yesterday I climbed a 3000 meter (10,000 feet) peak where some steps hewn into the rock were nearly vertical with a rail at the side to help you up (and down). I couldn't believe it - I flew up the mountain, passing dozens and dozens of people as if they were standing still. People in their 20s, 30s, 40s etc. Made no difference, I burnt them all up. Actually ran up the near vertical steps; yes it made me puff at the top but within 20 secs I'd recovered and was off again.
You could say perhaps they were in no hurry. However, the sweat soaked clothes and heavy breathing and cursing gave them away.

I stopped for a drink at a small wooden hut halfway up and a young couple who I'd just passed rolled in looking as miserable as sin. The woman asked the guy selling the drinks (the drinks are all carried up these mountains on the backs of little old men and women) how far to the top. On learning they were only at the halfway point, the guy mumbled something and they turned and descended.

So for any oldies out there training hard - it's worth it. You can tell the couch potato sneerers, it's not so much about "quantity of life" but "quality". To do what theoretically only young people are capable of. And from my experience, 80% of the youngsters today are not able to do what they should be able to do at their age.

Tyson steps down from the soapbox and gets on with some work.:D

I look forward nextyear to RapDaddyo versus Tyson in the "THRILLER ON THE HILLER". This year would be a "no contest" but I'm working on it.:( I don't mean to discourage you, but you may need to up your volume a bit. I just finished a 1221 point TSS week as I ramp up for my hill climb on 9/16. I have only 4 weeks to go. Now I need to get serious!

Sounds Awesome RD, especially the bit in bold letters. Where do you find these guys?That's easy. Go on a group ride on a route with a 5+ mile climb. Climb it at 300W and recruit all the guys patiently waiting for you at the top.

I don't mean to discourage you, but you may need to up your volume a bit. I just finished a 1221 point TSS week as I ramp up for my hill climb on 9/16. I have only 4 weeks to go. Now I need to get serious!

I don't mean to discourage you, but while you are recovering for a month or two after overtraining I shall creep up on you. Also bear in mind when you do start training again, you won't be able to come in at the point where you left off before the crash.:D

I don't mean to discourage you, but while you are recovering for a month or two after overtraining I shall creep up on you. Also bear in mind when you do start training again, you won't be able to come in at the point where you left off before the crash.:DAh, but Performance Manager has been introduced just in time. So, I will be fine-tuning my training insanity instead of naively riding myself into the ground.:D

Thought I'd just drop in to post the latest progress.

Today decided to try a VO2Max session again starting at 300Watts.

After the first minute - the same old problem, the legs started to slow down and the last minute was a grind. (so it became as per last week an AWC workout). Anyway, tried another at 300W. Same again the legs apparently involuntarily slowed right down and the last minute was purgatory.

THEN - Made the most amazing discovery. After taking a peek at my heart rate after the 2nd interval I noticed it was only 135 bpm. I realized I'd let fear get the better of me and I was actually slacking. So on the 3rd interval I kept the cadence going at around 70/80. Wow it was easy. Sure the HR went up but the little old legs were motoring.:D So did another 3 intervals @300W

So that was 6x2minutes @ 300 Watts with 2 mins recovery between each.
However, I think my HR during the last 20 secs of the last interval at 167bpm was pretty close to my MHR - whatever that is.

I know it's still oceans away from 20 minutes @ 300W but... I was happy. Also I think now that if I keep the cadence going on the first interval I should be able to do 3-5 mins @ 300W.

I think this will give me a lot of confidence for the Lake Biwa ride in October, because now I know I can comfortably take the lead and hold it for a while before dropping back. AND I STILL HAVE 6 WEEKS LEFT OF GOOD TRAINING;)

So that was 6x2minutes @ 300 Watts with 2 mins recovery between each.I think that is a first for you, isn't it, 6x2 @ 300W? Also, I notice that on several occasions you are converting L5 workouts into L4 workouts. Does that mean you aren't doing L5 workouts (~5mins)? I think it would be worthwhile to do ~5min efforts (at whatever power you can complete a set). Let's say that the max power you can complete a set of, say, 4x5 efforts is 275W. That is still a very good workout even if you wish you were doing them at 300W. I am increasingly thinking that your MP/duration curve is relatively "flat," which means that VO2MAX and AWC efforts are going to be difficult for you using the traditional benchmarks (e.g., 120%FTP for VO2MAX). But, remember that the L5 band is 106-120%. So, if your FTP is, say, 250W, then you are in the band >265W. I will reiterate my own approach of doing all high-intensity efforts (other than L7) at ~90% of my max power for the duration. I really question the benefit (physiological or psychological) of doing routine high-intensity efforts at 100% of max power (for the duration).:D

I think that is a first for you, isn't it, 6x2 @ 300W? Also, I notice that on several occasions you are converting L5 workouts into L4 workouts. Does that mean you aren't doing L5 workouts (~5mins)? I think it would be worthwhile to do ~5min efforts (at whatever power you can complete a set). Let's say that the max power you can complete a set of, say, 4x5 efforts is 275W. That is still a very good workout even if you wish you were doing them at 300W. I am increasingly thinking that your MP/duration curve is relatively "flat," which means that VO2MAX and AWC efforts are going to be difficult for you using the traditional benchmarks (e.g., 120%FTP for VO2MAX). But, remember that the L5 band is 106-120%. So, if your FTP is, say, 250W, then you are in the band >265W. I will reiterate my own approach of doing all high-intensity efforts (other than L7) at ~90% of my max power for the duration. I really question the benefit (physiological or psychological) of doing routine high-intensity efforts at 100% of max power (for the duration).:DThat's right, I haven't done any VO2Max workouts for a while - had a bit of difficulty selecting a manageable Wattage. After the above which as you say is a first for me, I think 4x5 @ 275W is realistic.
It seems to me you are saying with regard to L6 efforts, I'm doing them at too high an intensity (300Watts) Have I got that right?

I forgot to tell you RD. A few people (who for some reason don't want to post) have PMd me saying they are following this thread and find the info
useful in their training. I suspect that with almost 37,000 views, more than a few are following your advice. Keep up the good work! Tyson;)

That's right, I haven't done any VO2Max workouts for a while - had a bit of difficulty selecting a manageable Wattage. After the above which as you say is a first for me, I think 4x5 @ 275W is realistic.That's a good wattage for the L5s. I encourage you to include these in your weekly workout schedule. They are targeting a different adaptation than the AWC efforts. I would include both at this point.

It seems to me you are saying with regard to L6 efforts, I'm doing them at too high an intensity (300Watts) Have I got that right?Maybe a little bit too high. I just don't think it is necessary to ride them at what is effectively your max power for the duration. Let's say that you can hold 300W for 3mins maximum (yeah, I know, maybe this is jumping the gun by a week or two). Then, if you want to use 300W for power, back off 10-20% on the duration (e.g., 2.5mins).

I forgot to tell you RD. A few people (who for some reason don't want to post) have PMd me saying they are following this thread and find the info useful in their training. I suspect that with almost 37,000 views, more than a few are following your advice. Keep up the good work! Tyson;)What makes this thread interesting is your enthusiasm, your willingness to take suggestions and your follow-up. Many people in this forum seek advice but we never hear how it worked out. Your candor in reporting back your successes (and failures) is great. I don't think there is a person on the planet who doesn't want you to succeed. You are our hero!:D

What makes this thread interesting is your enthusiasm, your willingness to take suggestions and your follow-up. Many people in this forum seek advice but we never hear how it worked out. Your candor in reporting back your successes (and failures) is great. I don't think there is a person on the planet who doesn't want you to succeed. You are our hero!:DThank you RD for that slightly :rolleyes: exaggerated panegyric. :D

However, lately I feel that I'm letting the people (all 5 of them :) ) down by not performing better. I'm still hovering around a mere 250 Watts for 20 minutes.
If I don't improve over the next month or so, the purpose of this thread will lose its meaning and I think it would be best to bow down low, apologise for my shortcomings and - exeunt TYSON.:(

Having said this, you can rest assured I shall be giving it my best shot. I'm still hoping the weather is a factor in my poor performance of late.
Late September will tell!

Starting tomorrow, I shall be dramatically increasing my Sunday ride distance.
(Sorry, I'm not a believer in a 10% at a time increase) Within 4 weeks I shall have doubled my mileage as I did before the century last June.

One final thing - RD you were trying to guess what I had incorporated into my training. Well as I told you, it is something you have said on more than one occasion and the biggest clue lies in a post on page 1 of this thread.
Whose post I cannot say, except to say it's not one of yours.:D

lately I feel that I'm letting the people (all 5 of them :) ) down by not performing better. I'm still hovering around a mere 250 Watts for 20 minutes. If I don't improve over the next month or so, the purpose of this thread will lose its meaning and I think it would be best to bow down low, apologise for my shortcomings and - exeunt TYSON.:( I think the final post of this thread should be your description of your October ride and your thoughts on what worked and what didn't work in your attempt to reach your personal maximum sustainable power. Success isn't a number or a podium finish. Success is reaching our personal genetic limit through smart training.

I'm still hoping the weather is a factor in my poor performance of late. Late September will tell!Poor performance of late?:confused: Aren't you now doing high-intensity efforts at or near your best ever power?

Starting tomorrow, I shall be dramatically increasing my Sunday ride distance. (Sorry, I'm not a believer in a 10% at a time increase) Within 4 weeks I shall have doubled my mileage as I did before the century last June.Shouldn't be a problem. You've got a good base.

One final thing - RD you were trying to guess what I had incorporated into my training. Well as I told you, it is something you have said on more than one occasion and the biggest clue lies in a post on page 1 of this thread. Whose post I cannot say, except to say it's not one of yours.:DI'm not big on guessing. If it works, I want to know what it was. If it doesn't work, I want to know what it was. If you can't tell if it worked or didn't work, I don't want to know about it.

Hey RD,

newbie to this power thing, I don't have a bike power meter but I have the Kurt Kinetic trainer and just got the power meter for it. I calibrated the tension as suggested by some to time the wheel coast down speed from 20mpg to still in 13sec.

I did my first ride with it today, warmed up and did a 20min, cadence 80rpm, it gave an average of 184 watts, 17mph, my average HR was around 170, from past experience I believe my LT/AT is about 175.
I could've gone harder but it was just a first time test ride.
My regular bike computer also gave the same speed.

My max HR has seen 210 whilst trying to climb an extreme hill like an idiot with no pacing whatsoever. I also play a lot of soccer which is anaerobic and hr jumps all over the place eg up to 195 when chasing a ball.

I am 36yrs and weigh 92kg been riding for about 3 yrs and started trying to ride seriously last 4 months with a new road bike and hr monitor etc.

Due to time constraints and network of roads available my outdoor riding is basically about
1-1 1/2 hours and around 15-20 miles avg 16mph 2 times a week and maybe twice a week indoor on the trainer for 45 mins with some spinervals.

Unfortunately there aren't many club rides down around my level in my country, the closest club ride closest to my level is a 50-60mile ride on Saturdays averaging around 17-19mph, 3-3 1/2 hours approx. I suspect I may not be too far off since I ride by myself and it would be easier in the draft. pack.

I would like to be able to advance to be able to ride at this kind of level but road time is really an issue and riding more than 60 mins on a trainer is tough.

I just ordered the coggan book but I am wondering exactly how could I incorporate power training since it would be limited to on the indoor trainer whilst if I ride on the road I can only monitor speed, time, hr on the same network of roads which I am accustomed to riding.

L

Hey RD,

newbie to this power thing, I don't have a bike power meter but I have the Kurt Kinetic trainer and just got the power meter for it.Smart decision. I think you can train with power with this trainer, with or without a power meter.

I did my first ride with it today, warmed up and did a 20min, cadence 80rpm, it gave an average of 184 watts, 17mph, my average HR was around 170, from past experience I believe my LT/AT is about 175.
I could've gone harder but it was just a first time test ride. My regular bike computer also gave the same speed.Don't worry about your HR. It will probably "drift" during the course of a high-intensity effort anyway. It might be a good idea to try to figure out what your maximum constant power is for 20mins. You can do this with trial and error. Then you can use ~92-95% of that number for 20min efforts for starters.

My max HR has seen 210 whilst trying to climb an extreme hill like an idiot with no pacing whatsoever. I also play a lot of soccer which is anaerobic and hr jumps all over the place eg up to 195 when chasing a ball.Again, I wouldn't worry much about HR at this point.

Due to time constraints and network of roads available my outdoor riding is basically about 1-1 1/2 hours and around 15-20 miles avg 16mph 2 times a week and maybe twice a week indoor on the trainer for 45 mins with some spinervals.That's not a huge amount of time on the bike, but you can make progress with that amount of time if you use it effectively.

I would like to be able to advance to be able to ride at this kind of level but road time is really an issue and riding more than 60 mins on a trainer is tough.The trainer time will not be boring if you are riding at the appropriate intensities. When I am on my trainer, it requires my full concentration because I don't do anything less than L4 efforts.

I just ordered the coggan book but I am wondering exactly how could I incorporate power training since it would be limited to on the indoor trainer whilst if I ride on the road I can only monitor speed, time, hr on the same network of roads which I am accustomed to riding.Another smart decision. After you understand everything in that book, you'll know more than I do. You can absolutely train with power with your trainer. On the road, I suggest riding by RPE (versus HR). You want to search for the same "feel" of downstroke effort at the same cadence that you use on your trainer. You'll quickly figure out what this downforce feels like at your target power. In power terms, it's the torque you want to develop a feel for. When you match the torque with a cadence, voila, you have power.

well one thing for sure is that working on the trainer has developed a better pedal stroke since I have to pedal all the time to keep the same level, no forward momentum coasting like on the road.

I think the final post of this thread should be your description of your October ride and your thoughts on what worked and what didn't work in your attempt to reach your personal maximum sustainable power. Success isn't a number or a podium finish. Success is reaching our personal genetic limit through smart training.


Can we really end this thread RD? Just today I had another PM (quite a few of late) from someone drawing inspiration from the advice given. I've immensely enjoyed our exchanges and repartee and think I shall suffer from extreme withdrawal symptoms should the thread come to an end. However, as you are the main contributor to the thread, the decision lies in your hands. I'm guessing you feel your job has come to an end and you are encouraging the fledgling to fly the nest. The only problem is there are other eggs still hatching - lennyk for example for one.


Still, the original idea behind this thread was to help a silly old twit climb hills faster and stay with or pass his much younger riding partner. Within weeks now, there will be absolutely no contest vis-à-vis the above.

Today on a solo ride, I literally flew up the 15 percenter where I used to struggle and wonder for how much longer I could continue to climb it every Sunday.


Let's review the situation after LakeBiwa. As I told you in an earlier post, I'm thinking of doing an 8 hour endurance ride around the Suzuka race circuit later on in October. My riding buddy thinks I'm crazy as it is quite a tough circuit. However, it would be nice to win my age category and perhaps even better the 50-60 class. Still pondering that one.:D

Maybe you could do a timeline summary of your levels before,
what kind of training strategy and methods and how you progressed over time
and what were the key things you can identify that you trained specifically in your case
which obviously may not work for others but at least what your training targeted.
Also what tests if any your would do to measure milestones in training.