It's killing me but..........

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Come onnnnn, not even the great RD could do 2 hours a day of upper L4 intervals 3 days in succession. Clark Kent maybe, but not us mere mortals.:DMaybe not 2 hours, but 90 mins, absolutely. In fact, that is exactly what my daily dose of L4 efforts will be beginning mid-August. Right now it's 60mins/day, plus L5-L7 efforts. L4 efforts are mentally challenging, but they aren't too hard physiologically. Anyway, you just have to learn to let your quads sort of numb out, then you can forget about them.:D

Maybe not 2 hours, but 90 mins, absolutely. In fact, that is exactly what my daily dose of L4 efforts will be beginning mid-August. Right now it's 60mins/day, plus L5-L7 efforts. L4 efforts are mentally challenging, but they aren't too hard physiologically. Anyway, you just have to learn to let your quads sort of numb out, then you can forget about them.:DI'm conviced you're completely insane! You'll damage your heart.:D

I'm going back to bed again, I'm still fatigued.;)

Not a particularly good week.

After a good ride last Sunday and an average AWC workout in the gym on Tuesday as posted earlier, the other interval totals were as follows:

1x25 @ 230W
2x20 @ 230W
2x10 @ 230W
1x5 @ 230W

This was the total for Tues,Wed,Thurs = 90mins @ 230Watts.
Couldn't bring myself to go to the gym today.:(

A lot of residual fatigue from last week. I guess I'm not a volume man!

After 2 weeks doing mostly 230Watt intervals, the question of course is what about next week? I'm considering doing high intensity stuff every other day interspersed with some lower intensity intervals on alternate days.
So let's assume 250W intervals next Tuesday - then Wednesday would be
225Watts say, and back to 250W on Thursday. Friday would be even lower intensity, say 215/220Watts to round off the week.

I do believe now the temperature at 97 degrees F and 80% humidity plus is draining me before and after I get to the gym. Writing this post now, the sweat is pouring off me. If this is in fact a factor in my poor performance, then I would expect to see rapid improvement later on in September.

Sunday I shall be out on the road between 4.30am and 5am when the temp is around 77F and hopefully get back before it gets too hot. And with 2 days rest I anticipate a good ride. I intend to attack the hills like there's no tomorrow. TYSON

Im too lazy too read through all 6million posts so I will just ask :p . Do you train anything besides FT? SOT, do you intend to race in the masters at all. You are quite strong for someone so young :p Keep up the good work I am fascinated by the considerable gain in fitness you have made from page1 in the thread.

Im too lazy too read through all 6million posts so I will just ask :p . Do you train anything besides FT? SOT, do you intend to race in the masters at all. You are quite strong for someone so young :p Keep up the good work I am fascinated by the considerable gain in fitness you have made from page1 in the thread.LOL If you read through the last 3 pages or so, you will see I do the occasional AWC and VO2Max workout. Not as often as I would like though.

I was actually doing somewhat higher Wattages in May of this year, but after a crash during my 100miler in June followed by a viral infection, I went back a few weeks ago to 210W and am now in the course of building back up again. That said, I'm hopefully creating a stronger foundation as I head towards the distant mirage (very distant:( ) - 1x20 @ 300 Watts:D

As for the masters, road bikes are a fairly recent phenomenon here in Japan; no TTs, and to the best of my knowledge no crits. Suzuka F1 circuit weekend event in August seems to be the only real organized (racing) event in Japan. Maybe someone living in Tokyo will disagree, but in this neck of the woods there isn't much going on. My next challenge is a 150km ride around Lake Biwa in October.
This is organized by my LBC with a limit of 60 riders. Last year I did it with an FT of around 130W and weighing 84/85kilos.
This year weighing 71/72kilos with an FT of ??? I hope to do a lot better than last year. It's not really a race with 3 stops en route, where we wait for everyone to catch up.
Having said this, guys do race between stations.
Last year I got burned up by many riders who passed me as if I was standing still, and I could hardly latch onto anyone.
This year is going to be a totally different story.;) TYSON

that sucks, there would 4km pursuits on the track wouldn't there?

Hopefully you can find some races

Tyson said:

As for the masters, road bikes are a fairly recent phenomenon here in Japan; no TTs, and to the best of my knowledge no crits. Suzuka F1 circuit weekend event in August seems to be the only real organized (racing) event in Japan. Maybe someone living in Tokyo will disagree, but in this neck of the woods there isn't much going on. My next challenge is a 150km ride around Lake Biwa in October.



Tyson, have you contacted the Japan Cycling Federation (http://www.jcf.or.jp/eng2/index.html) or the All Japan Businessman Cycling Federation (http://www.jbcf-net.org/) to see if they know of races in your area? When you talk with the local riders and the riders at the major group rides like the Lake Biwa event are they saying the same thing, that there just aren't many local time trials, road races or crits in your part of the country? Have you asked about races at the local bike shops? Race promoters only have so much time to make the general public aware of race events. In my experience, races can be hard to find out about because 1 organization, 1 web site or 1 group of riders doesn't have a comprehensive view of all of the opportunities.

A few nights ago I was riding on a flat circuit in a local park with an experienced group of riders that I hang out with. We ride this circuit together at least two evenings a week for 9 months of the year. These guys are in their 40's and 50's, long time serious recreational riders and they ride hard but they don't race. When they ask me how racing is going, I tell them that they would do well in the races that I have been in because I often find myself working harder on their group rides than I do in many of the races. So, the other night a couple of these guys were wondering if there were any flat races this summer where they could enter and try out the sport. The amazing thing is there was going to be a big day of racing for all categories on the very loop that we were riding on in just 3 weeks! That race has been held there every summer for at least the last 7 years! Nobody in this group of 10 riders knew about that race!

It might be different in Japan, but I'm hoping that if you dig around a little you might turn up some races in your area. When you read through the posts in this thread, what stands out for me, is the way you are invigorated and animated by challenges like going faster up the climbs to Lake Biwa and beating your "young friend" going up showdown hill. In your response to challenges like these, you shine! You would have a blast with racing, I think, so I hope there are at least a few more races in your part of Japan than there appears to be.

Not a particularly good week.

After a good ride last Sunday and an average AWC workout in the gym on Tuesday as posted earlier, the other interval totals were as follows:

1x25 @ 230W
2x20 @ 230W
2x10 @ 230W
1x5 @ 230W

This was the total for Tues,Wed,Thurs = 90mins @ 230Watts.
Couldn't bring myself to go to the gym today.:(I think you're closer to your May peak than you may think. I took a quick look back at your workouts of late April to late May when you were peaking for your century. These appear to be your best FT and VO2MAX workouts.
FT: 5/7 1x20 @ 250W + 1x10 @ 250W + 1x7 @ 240W
VO2MAX: 5/19 1x5 @ 250W + 2x5 @ 260W
These numbers suggest to me that your peak FTP was ~235W in May and that your power/duration curve is relatively flat (i.e., small differences between AWC, VO2MAX and FTP). I think that if you got a couple of days' rest and were sufficiently motivated (e.g., eye candy), you could do a full 60 min ride at 235W. If I'm right that your FTP is now as high as it has ever been at ~235W, that means you are increasing your sustainable power with L4 efforts >214W (91% of 235). The residual fatigue that makes it more difficult to complete the workouts doesn't mean you are going backwards. It means that your body is hard at work adapting to the stress you have induced. If your schedule permits, you might have better workouts if you put a rest day in between your workouts and make your workouts longer. So, instead of spreading 90mins of L4 across three days (30mins/day), try doing 45mins on two days with a rest day between. The key is the total duration of L4-L6. And, given a choice between 90mins @ 240W and 120mins @ 230W, I would choose 120mins at 230W. Just keep at it. You are making progress, but can't see it yet due to the residual fatigue. I've been doing some serious volume the last month and was struggling through some workouts early in the week. Then, on Wed night I decided to just do an FTP ride until I couldn't turn the cranks any longer. I expected I would have to bail at ~40mins. Well, after 60mins I just quit out of boredom. I'm absolutely sure I could have maintained the pace for 90-120mins, but I didn't want to wreck the remainder of the week. And, I had a lot of residual fatigue from the prior several days of rides. I haven't had a day off my bike in 30+ days and my easiest workouts have been 60mins at FTP. Such rides are actually the most rewarding, when I have a good effort in spite of a considerable amount of residual fatigue.:D

As for the masters, road bikes are a fairly recent phenomenon here in Japan; no TTs, and to the best of my knowledge no crits. Suzuka F1 circuit weekend event in August seems to be the only real organized (racing) event in Japan. TYSONTyson, whereabouts in Japan are you based? I live in the middle of nowhere now (20km from Himeji), but used to live an hour away from Tokyo. While there are nowhere near the amount of events as in e.g. the UK (only place I can compare to), there is certainly much more than Suzuka! Hillclimbs (usually held as uphill TTs) in particular are very easy to find, there is an organised series of circuit road races, and several more of the racetrack based "endurance" rides where you do as many laps as possible in 2,4,8, 12, 24 hours. One of the biggest in Kanto is the Fuji-speedway 200km challenge (link below), not that I have ever done it. There are also public-targeted races attached to pro-level races such as the Tours of Hokkaido (Sep?) and Okinawa (Dec?). Most races seem to have fairly finely divided age categories.

A good source of info are magazines like "funride", "cycle sports", "bicycle club", and there are a couple of websites that put together information (below -- in Japanese)


http://www.sportsentry.ne.jp/search.php?ct=c
http://www.funride.jp/event/
http://www.fuji200.jp/cms/

Hi Curlew, you only pop in occasionally but it's good to hear from you when you do. Thank you for your advice/tips. Yes it's amazing how sometimes we can live in a vacuum and be totally unaware of what's going on around us.

And Jim, I've taken a look at those links you posted and was surprised to see just how much is actually going on in my prefecture alone. I suppose all I needed to have done was, to bang "cycling" in the Japanese Yahoo and Bob would have been my uncle.:D

RD, I've done a lot of reading of the posts both in this forum and the power forum. Reading between the lines in some cases, I came to realise there was something missing in my gym workouts. Can you guess what it is? You actually mentioned it yourself on occasion, but because you didn't elaborate I didn't quite grasp what you meant. Anyway, this week it hit me and so I've decided to alter my weekday training somewhat.

The week so far is not worth talking about, suffice to say, today in among 1hour and 20 mins of allsorts I did 1x20 @ 250Watts.

I've decided to bow out now until later in September when I shall return with a report on how things are progressing. Hopefully very well! ;)

RD, I've done a lot of reading of the posts both in this forum and the power forum. Reading between the lines in some cases, I came to realise there was something missing in my gym workouts. Can you guess what it is? You actually mentioned it yourself on occasion, but because you didn't elaborate I didn't quite grasp what you meant. Anyway, this week it hit me and so I've decided to alter my weekday training somewhat.I'm not sure. Maybe the duration and intensity of the recovery durations? This is a topic where my views may depart from the trodden path. I don't believe the recovery durations do anything but allow one to recover sufficiently for the next high-intensity effort. It is the high-intensity efforts that result in increased power. When people talk about interval sets, it seems to me they put as much emphasis on the recovery durations as they do on the high-intensity efforts. I don't. When I do my trainer rides, I often get off my bike completely between efforts, get some coffee and check my email. I try to avoid staying off the bike too long so that I don't have to warm up my muscles for the next high-intensity effort, but beyond that I don't really care whether I spin along at 150W or get off the bike. About the only time the recovery durations matter (IMO) is when one is trying to derive power estimates from the total workout (e.g., FTP). For example, if one does 2x20s with a 10min recovery duration it might not be a valid estimate of FTP.

The week so far is not worth talking about, suffice to say, today in among 1hour and 20 mins of allsorts I did 1x20 @ 250Watts.Actually, I was going to suggest a good next goal for you. I think you should target a bona fide 60min constant power ride at 250W. I think this would be a new high-water mark for you and 250W of sustainable power is not too shabby. A good way to sneak up on it would be 3x20s, 2x30s, 1x40 + 1x20, then the big one, 1x60. Be sure to alert the electricians at your health club because you'll probably short out the whole place.:D

Thought I'd drop in to say I have just done my first ride since turning 64 yesterday. Smashed my 57km Sunday course by over 3 minutes. Felt good and am looking forward to my 47th :rolleyes: birthday next year!:D Tyson

Thought I'd drop in to say I have just done my first ride since turning 64 yesterday. Smashed my 57km Sunday course by over 3 minutes. Felt good and am looking forward to my 47th :rolleyes: birthday next year!:D TysonHappy birthday, Tyson. Glad to hear you smashed your course record. In one more year, you can jump up to the 65+ masters category. It only took 1:01 to win the 40K TT (for men's 65+) in this year's CA/NV state championships http://www.uncletren.com/cbr/State%20TT%20Final.htm. Something to aim for.:D

Happy birthday, Tyson. Glad to hear you smashed your course record. In one more year, you can jump up to the 65+ masters category. It only took 1:01 to win the 40K TT (for men's 65+) in this year's CA/NV state championships http://www.uncletren.com/cbr/State%20TT%20Final.htm. Something to aim for.:D
LOL I love your sense of humour/humor RD - only one hour!:eek:

That reminds me. Yesterday visited my LBS and picked up an application form for a race in October, 2 weeks after the Lake Biwa 150km.

I told you about the races this month at the Suzuka Race Circuit. Anyway, on the 21st October there's a 4 hour endurance race at Suzuka. Now 4 hours for me doesn't require much endurance - that's a jaunt. ;) On the 22nd there's an 8 hour endurance race. Now that's an endurance race, especially as you're going round and round the same course for 8 hours - the boredom must be mind numbing.
The course is by no means flat and last years solo winner averaged 37kmph!

I'm tempted, but only tempted because besides the boredom it's 112 dollars to enter.

What do you think - give it miss/rain check? Phew, I'm glad you think so.:D

Smashed my 57km Sunday course by over 3 minutes.


I hear the power hungry monster stirring again. In Indiana the 60+ winner in this year's State 40K TT crossed the line in 1:04:37 or 23.08 mph (37.14 kmh) average speed. On other days and different courses these guys have gotten just under 1 hour.

2006 Indiana State 40K TT Results (http://www.3rvs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=705&sid=b954288910915b4af7dd547d170511c6)

You have come a long way this year Tyson and there is still at least 3 months of good riding left outside, at least here in Indiana. Who knows how far we will get this season in our climb up Mount FT?

RD says that it looks like your FT is around 235 and headed for 250. When I plug 250 watts into the Watts and Speed Calculator (http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm) it looks like somebody your size that can generate 250 watts over an hour on a road bike without aero equipment is going to average roughly 23 mph in a 40K TT and come in at around 1:04:45. It may not be a winning time but 1:04:45 is a respectable time around here for any age on a road bike without TT gear.

I'm at 71 kg and think my FT is around 240-250 watts right now. In the beginning category races here there are a lot of guys racing and time trialing with a lot lower FT/weight ratio than ours. You rolled your eyes earlier in the year when you thought about the possibility that you might actually be strong enough to ride at the front of a race. RD said that 250 watts with your weight wasn't too shabby. I agree. With your numbers I think you would find it easy to get to the front in the local beginning category races here in the midwest. You wouldn't just be hanging on at the end of the pack. In the local races here in the midwest I ride with roughly your numbers and I have enough power so that on a lot of the courses on a lot of the days I am securely in the pack, having fun, and capable of doing some of the work at the front that keeps the pace high.

Bridging gaps, breaking away and finishing, well......, there's plenty of time ahead to work on that. Did you think that you would come this far in just 8 months? With all of the new power that RD and others have shown us the way to acquire, I can hardly wait for the offseason to get even more! Ah....the possibilities....!

I can hardly wait for the offseason to get even more! Ah....the possibilities....!Great post, curlew.:cool: I agree 100% that 250W with Tyson's weight would make him competitive just about anywhere, in Cat5/4 and the Masters categories 55+. I've started my big push to get light by 9/16 for my target hill climb TT. I don't know if I can get to 4.5 w/kg, but I'm going to try.:D

Curlew wrote:


I hear the power hungry monster stirring again. In Indiana the 60+ winner in this year's State 40K TT crossed the line in 1:04:37 or 23.08 mph (37.14 kmh) average speed. On other days and different courses these guys have gotten just under 1 hour.

2006 Indiana State 40K TT Results (http://www.3rvs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=705&sid=b954288910915b4af7dd547d170511c6)


You have come a long way this year Tyson and there is still at least 3 months of good riding left outside, at least here in Indiana. Who knows how far we will get this season in our climb up MountFT?

RD says that it looks like your FT is around 235 and headed for 250. When I plug 250 watts into the Watts and Speed Calculator (http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm) it looks like somebody your size that can generate 250 watts over an hour on a road bike without aero equipment is going to average roughly 23 mph in a 40K TT and come in at around 1:04:45. It may not be a winning time but 1:04:45 is a respectable time around here for any age on a road bike without TT gear.


I'm at 71 kg and think my FT is around 240-250 watts right now. In the beginning category races here there are a lot of guys racing and time trialing with a lot lower FT/weight ratio than ours. You rolled your eyes earlier in the year when you thought about the possibility that you might actually be strong enough to ride at the front of a race. RD said that 250 watts with your weight wasn't too shabby. I agree. With your numbers I think you would find it easy to get to the front in the local beginning category races here in the midwest. You wouldn't just be hanging on at the end of the pack. In the local races here in the midwest I ride with roughly your numbers and I have enough power so that on a lot of the courses on a lot of the days I am securely in the pack, having fun, and capable of doing some of the work at the front that keeps the pace high.


Bridging gaps, breaking away and finishing, well......, there's plenty of time ahead to work on that. Did you think that you would come this far in just 8 months? With all of the new power that RD and others have shown us the way to acquire, I can hardly wait for the offseason to get even more! Ah....the possibilities....!




Sounds to me like you're the power hungry monster Curlew. Thank you for the faith you have in me. I think the problem is, in my case I don't do enough actual racing. All I seem to be doing is preparing for god knows what. Yes, there's the 150km ride around Biwa in October, but it's not a race per se as I explained a few posts ago. I shall get my revenge on the team guys all dressed in identical pretty gear with carbon and titanium bikes who flew past me last year like I was walking along the sidewalk/pavement. But that's it!:(

They will find this annoying grey haired foreigner sticking to their rear wheels like goo. I still have a little time to consolidate my FTP, whatever it might be.

However, soon I shall have to step up my Sunday ride mileage, which in itself presents a problem. All my courses up to 100km plus include excruciating climbs, which was fine as training for the mountainous 100 miler last June, but the Lake Biwa course for all intents and purposes is fairly flat.

There is one possibility though. Not far from my house is the Shonai River, and one can ride alongside the river on a narrow strip for miles and miles. Perhaps I should consider training there. The only concern I have is losing my hard fought gains I've made vis-à-vis my climbing ability.

On the positive side of course, one can ride at or near one's FTP for as long as one chooses. Advice here would be much appreciated.



Anyway Curlew, you seem to be riding well at the mo. I think I will have to get my finger out if I want to achieve a higher FTP than you. ;) I'm expecting a quantum leap once the weather cools down mid/late September. It’s close on a hundred degrees today, but luckily the humidity has dropped to around 70%.

In the gym today, within minutes I was sweating buckets; this can't help with one's ability to generate power. So although my figures are disappointing at present, I'm persevering in the hope that when it does cool down the figures will go through the roof. TYSON the eternal optimist!:D

RD wrote:

I've started my big push to get light by 9/16 for my target hill climb TT. I don't know if I can get to 4.5 w/kg, but I'm going to try.

RD, I am betting that a lot of us who have enjoyed and benefitted from your posts at Cycling Forums are going to find ourselves on 9/16 wondering about your ride and that hill.

At some point on 9/16 I will probably be out on my bike gathering myself along the side of the road after the last interval of the day. As I review my data from that last interval I'll notice on the bike computer display that it is 9/16! That will trigger a flood of images of bikes, riders, colors, sounds, and most of all that LONG GRADE as I try to picture how it went for you on the hill that day. Then, there will be a big smile. Instead of heading for home, I will find myself suddenly having the energy to push off for another interval, and do what you have to do to be equal to the showdown hill that's out there for all of us.

Thanks RD for all of the help you've given us. You have set a lot of us in motion. I hope you can avoid the colds and other mishaps that interrupt final preparations! Remember, take off your sunglasses before entering any dark tunnels! :D

RD, I am betting that a lot of us who have enjoyed and benefitted from your posts at Cycling Forums are going to find ourselves on 9/16 wondering about your ride and that hill.Thanks, curlew. Actually, I have just learned that the race has been changed to a mass-start RR (for the first time in the race's history). This is sort of a strange decision for this course. After the first few miles, the drafting advantage goes to zero and the riders will string out. While it doesn't affect my training, it does bring into question the category I should enter. I can enter Cat4 or Masters 45+. Unlike most of the races in CA, they don't have a 55+ category, much less a 60+ category. Some of the strongest riders in the area are in the 45-50 age range. Either way, it's still one awesome hill and 90-120 minutes of relentless climbing. For me, these are the most demanding and interesting races because there is just no place to rest. Fortunately, CP has just released Performance Manager, which I plan to use to tweak my training in this last month before the race. And, whatever level of fitness I attain I can take advantage of with the Senior Olympics races a couple of weeks after the hill climb. Plus, I love the cooler weather. So, it's an exciting time as I try to bring myself to my personal potential for Sept/Oct. Anyway, thanks for the good wishes.:D

Thanks, curlew. Actually, I have just learned that the race has been changed to a mass-start RR (for the first time in the race's history). This is sort of a strange decision for this course. After the first few miles, the drafting advantage goes to zero and the riders will string out. While it doesn't affect my training, it does bring into question the category I should enter. I can enter Cat4 or Masters 45+. Unlike most of the races in CA, they don't have a 55+ category, much less a 60+ category. Some of the strongest riders in the area are in the 45-50 age range. Either way, it's still one awesome hill and 90-120 minutes of relentless climbing. For me, these are the most demanding and interesting races because there is just no place to rest. Fortunately, CP has just released Performance Manager, which I plan to use to tweak my training in this last month before the race. And, whatever level of fitness I attain I can take advantage of with the Senior Olympics races a couple of weeks after the hill climb. Plus, I love the cooler weather. So, it's an exciting time as I try to bring myself to my personal potential for Sept/Oct. Anyway, thanks for the good wishes.:DLOL RD, you're not seeking sympathy for having to climb for 90-120 mins, are you? ;) You volunteered for it, no one forced you. Like me forcing myself to the gym everyday to do intervals, it is my choice. Sometimes I think it would be nice to just coast along on the bike at weekends taking in the scenery.

However, I don't think we're made like that. When most people our age are starting to take life easier, here we are inflicting unadulterated torture upon ourselves. The only difference between us is that I'm a pure masochist, whereas you're a sadomasochist inflicting pain on innocent forum interlopers like yours truly.:D

Getting back to the hill climb, I'm sure you'll do well. I only wish I could be there with you. This year however, I'm not going to be strong enough to join you in Las Vegas, so I've put off my trip till next year. Can non-American citizens join the race btw?

Today I went to the gym fully determined to do a good VO2Max workout.

Started off at 300 Watts but after 2 minutes quickly changed the workout to an AWC session. On reflection I think I chickened out too early, because after that I did 290 Watts for 2mins. (again chickening out of repeating it)

Then I did 6x2mins @ 280 Watts. In the second minute of every 280W interval I thought this is the last one but kept going for the full 6.
That is why I think I stopped the 300W interval too early.
It's just a question of ignoring what the brain is telling you to do.

Btw, what happened to your century at 20mph - is it still on?

TYSON