It's killing me but..........

Since 2001, over 90,000 cyclist's have joined Cycling Forums to discuss topics from general cycling to equipment, training, racing and travel or vacation destinations (especially in europe during the tour de france). We also feature an great deals in our online store, 100's of articles, classifieds and product reviews.

I know exactly what I said and it's not at all contradictory.
"I don't see a 60min L4 as different from 3x20s"

"...there's a vast difference between (2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration) and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power."


And, who said anything about riding at my limit?
"By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power."

"I don't see a 60min L4 as different from 3x20s"

"...there's a vast difference between (2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration) and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power."The difference is in the mental focus, concentration and determination. There is no difference in them with respect to physiological stress or benefit or cost.

"By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power."That doesn't mean I am at my limit. It means that for a training ride it requires intense concentration, especially on a trainer. And, yes, that's how I feel. But, it doesn't mean I am at my limit.

I've had it with this. Go argue with yourself.

Hey guys, chill out. You're arguing over semantics now.

I think if you go through these forums you will always see more than one side/opinion etc. to every theory/argument. Even the "experts" disagree at times. I think one has to mount the horse that appears to best suit one's needs and hope you've backed a good horse. Also you have to admit that ideas vis-a-vis training ideas and methods are continually evolving, and who knows, perhaps 5 years from now we'll look back and say, "did I train like that?"

I don't want to take any sides in the argument, but the word "limit" is an interesting word when applied to training - do we really know our limit. Of course when you fall off the bike because you no longer can turn the pedals, I think it's safe to say you've reached your limit.

If I may give you an example Warren. Yesterday in the gym I intended to do a 50 minute interval. At 25 minutes my brain was saying stop you've had enough. The other me behind the brain kicked in and said - no, keep going. Approaching 30 minutes my brain and body or both said, that's it - stop! So I stopped. However, was I at my limit? All I can say is, if the lovely young thing on the next trainer had said, do the 50 minutes and you can spend the afternoon with me in a Japanese love hotel, you bet your bottom dollar I would have done it.
Probably wouldn't have been much good in the hotel mind you.:D

Back on topic.

This week I achieved the greatest volume (interval wise) I've ever done.

1x35 @ 230W
1x30 @ 230W
2x20 @ 230W
6x10 @ 230W

And today in the gym, in an attempt to regain my confidence with regard to VO2Max, decided to drop to 250W (pathetic I know) but I was somewhat fatigued from the effort of the week.

4x5mins @250W followed by 2x10 at a mixture of 210/220W (5 mins each W)

That was me spent for the week. My body was begging for mercy at the end - but had I reached my limit. Can't answer.;)

On we go to 240Watts next week. Laughable, isn't it. TYSON:)

hello ive been reading a lot of this tread again and the whole thing seems like
morrocan training they do

am - run of 30 - 50 minutes at 80% vo2max or faster(im making up the80% number anyway it is quality oriented,like 3'/km so verry near threshold)

pm - workout or easy jog.


what i wonder i never saw results or avg. speed of your 160 k tt. What speed where you riding before falling?
I also ride stationary only an im curious howd yo do.Sorry SL got transfixed with the battle of words.

I don't know what my average speed at the time of the accident was. I was more concerned about checking for broken bones, how much skin I'd lost, and what damage had been done to the bike. Remember it was a very mountainous course, so I guess the average was somewhere between 23 and 30KMH. I didn't quite understand your last question, but if you mean how do I train, it is all laid out in this thread. Get on the bike, 10 min warm up (previously 5) then bang in the desired wattage and off you go. No secrets there.

Btw, there is one small secret I forgot - choose a bike next to an attractive slim young lady. Does wonders for keeping you going. And by the same token avoid the chatty fatties, they are a complete waste of space. ;) TYSON

This week I achieved the greatest volume (interval wise) I've ever done.

1x35 @ 230W
1x30 @ 230W
2x20 @ 230W
6x10 @ 230W

And today in the gym, in an attempt to regain my confidence with regard to VO2Max, decided to drop to 250W (pathetic I know) but I was somewhat fatigued from the effort of the week.

4x5mins @250W followed by 2x10 at a mixture of 210/220W (5 mins each W)

That was me spent for the week. My body was begging for mercy at the end - but had I reached my limit. Can't answer.;) Tyson, that's a great week. Your determination is evident throughout the week. Two points. That's 205 mins of L4-L6 efforts and I agree that is more volume than any previous week. I don't think you should expect any immediate payoff from this volume in the form of increased power, but you can expect an immediate consequence in terms of fatigue. How your body's going to respond to the increased volume is not knowable yet and not even predictable. But, you will want to pay close attention to any feedback your body gives you next week. Second, based on these numbers I think your FTP is probably a solid ~225W. Why do I say that? I say that because I think if you attempted an hour ride at 225W you could do it (maybe begging for mercy at the end, but you could do it). If I'm right, your planned 240W efforts will be ~106%FTP. It's not a big deal, but recognize that 106% is the upper end of the L4 range and you may have difficulty doing more than 10min efforts at that power. If you find that to be the case next week (who knows, you may breeze through 2x20s @ 240W), I don't think you should hesitate to do another week at 230W. You will absolutely be gaining the same benefits at 230W.

Good week.:D

Tyson, that's a great week. Your determination is evident throughout the week. Two points. That's 205 mins of L4-L6 efforts and I agree that is more volume than any previous week. I don't think you should expect any immediate payoff from this volume in the form of increased power, but you can expect an immediate consequence in terms of fatigue. How your body's going to respond to the increased volume is not knowable yet and not even predictable. But, you will want to pay close attention to any feedback your body gives you next week. Second, based on these numbers I think your FTP is probably a solid ~225W. Why do I say that? I say that because I think if you attempted an hour ride at 225W you could do it (maybe begging for mercy at the end, but you could do it). If I'm right, your planned 240W efforts will be ~106%FTP. It's not a big deal, but recognize that 106% is the upper end of the L4 range and you may have difficulty doing more than 10min efforts at that power. If you find that to be the case next week (who knows, you may breeze through 2x20s @ 240W), I don't think you should hesitate to do another week at 230W. You will absolutely be gaining the same benefits at 230W.

Good week.:DThanks RD. This week started in the gym last Sunday, but it was on Wed & Thurs that I did the 1x30 and 1x35, so was actually stronger at the end of the week. Hopefully that will be reflected in my ability to do 20 min intervals @ 240W next week.

Incidentally, the forecast for this coming Sunday is rain later on the day, so shall be going out early with my cycling buddy. Have no idea how I shall fare as he is now 66kilos compared with my 71, never mind the slight age difference of 33 years.:rolleyes: I'm hoping he has sacrificed power to get down to that weight. By that I mean, his calorific intake might not be enough to facilitate a sustained effort. Will report Sunday afternoon.

As I have no means of accurately calculating the power levels on Sunday, I shall exclude it from my TSS for the week. Which means of course, the volume for the week will see a decline, assuming I can even do 20 min intervals @ 240Watts everyday.

Must get my beauty sleep now - talk to you tomorrow. ;) TYSON

... the word "limit" is an interesting word when applied to training - do we really know our limit. Of course when you fall off the bike because you no longer can turn the pedals, I think it's safe to say you've reached your limit.

If I may give you an example Warren. Yesterday in the gym I intended to do a 50 minute interval. At 25 minutes my brain was saying stop you've had enough. The other me behind the brain kicked in and said - no, keep going. Approaching 30 minutes my brain and body or both said, that's it - stop! So I stopped. However, was I at my limit? All I can say is, if the lovely young thing on the next trainer had said, do the 50 minutes and you can spend the afternoon with me in a Japanese love hotel, you bet your bottom dollar I would have done it.

Regarding "limits"... As you gain more experience you'll learn more about your mental and physical limits, and what the implications are. Any training that's difficult will have costs and benefits. The major cost will be the impact on future training, that day, the next day, next few days, next week, etc.

Sure, you can do a block of intervals or training session at your limit, but this will affect your ability to train productively later. So, is the possible benefit of riding at 95-100% of your limit (compared to 90-95%) worth the fact that later you will not be able to train as hard and/or as much?

Your example is apparently one of motivation, but also the struggle for balance between making a harder effort (and reaping the possible benefit) versus not making that extra effort, and deriving essentially the same amount of useful training stimulus and having a more rapid recovery that allows for more, useful training later. In your example, you could have stopped at 25 minutes, rested for a few minutes, and then done 10-15 more minutes. So which is more useful for you, 1x35, or 1x25 and 1x10-15?

Having said all this, there are many times I train at my limits of two types. The first limit is within a given block of intervals like 4x4' at VO2max, or a block of 6-9 uphill sprints. In these cases I go at 95-100%. I will not be repeating this type of training for several days at least so plenty of recovery time will be available. I can still do plenty of other effective training in the meantime.

The other type of limit is cummulative fatigue. The sum total of all training within a week, or two weeks, or three weeks, etc. is limited by how well I can recover without having to take too much time off for recovery (lost training time). Usually, the worst case will be a need to take an easy 4-6 days, but we manage to avoid this scenrio almost entirely until the end of the season.

As for looking back on our training from years past like you mentioned, an example would be one rest week every 4 weeks-a bit old school.

Regarding "limits"... As you gain more experience you'll learn more about your mental and physical limits, and what the implications are. Any training that's difficult will have costs and benefits. The major cost will be the impact on future training, that day, the next day, next few days, next week, etc.

Sure, you can do a block of intervals or training session at your limit, but this will affect your ability to train productively later. So, is the possible benefit of riding at 95-100% of your limit (compared to 90-95%) worth the fact that later you will not be able to train as hard and/or as much?

Your example is apparently one of motivation, but also the struggle for balance between making a harder effort (and reaping the possible benefit) versus not making that extra effort, and deriving essentially the same amount of useful training stimulus and having a more rapid recovery that allows for more, useful training later. In your example, you could have stopped at 25 minutes, rested for a few minutes, and then done 10-15 more minutes. So which is more useful for you, 1x35, or 1x25 and 1x10-15?

Having said all this, there are many times I train at my limits of two types. The first limit is within a given block of intervals like 4x4' at VO2max, or a block of 6-9 uphill sprints. In these cases I go at 95-100%. I will not be repeating this type of training for several days at least so plenty of recovery time will be available. I can still do plenty of other effective training in the meantime.

The other type of limit is cummulative fatigue. The sum total of all training within a week, or two weeks, or three weeks, etc. is limited by how well I can recover without having to take too much time off for recovery (lost training time). Usually, the worst case will be a need to take an easy 4-6 days, but we manage to avoid this scenrio almost entirely until the end of the season.

As for looking back on our training from years past like you mentioned, an example would be one rest week every 4 weeks-a bit old school.
I take all your points Warren, and for the most part I agree with what you're
saying. However, there is another factor, which I think RD was attempting to explain; one of disciplining your mind. It would be nice to split the intervals into smaller parcels, and perhaps you would make the same gains physiologically. But when it came to the crunch in a race say, you might be more easily tempted to give up the ghost after 10 minutes because your training had been geared towards 10 minute intervals. If you know through doing longer intervals in training, say 20/30/40mins and dare I say 1 hour,:rolleyes: then maybe, just maybe, you would be more inclined and have the ability to hang on in there.
I'm only theorizing, and perhaps I'm wrong. I'm sure you'll let me know if you think I am.;)

I take all your points Warren, and for the most part I agree with what you're
saying. However, there is another factor, which I think RD was attempting to explain; one of disciplining your mind. ... But when it came to the crunch in a race say, you might be more easily tempted to give up the ghost after 10 minutes because your training had been geared towards 10 minute intervals. If you know through doing longer intervals in training, say 20/30/40mins and dare I say 1 hour,:rolleyes: then maybe, just maybe, you would be more inclined and have the ability to hang on in there.
I'm only theorizing, and perhaps I'm wrong. I'm sure you'll let me know if you think I am.;)

I have recently been visiting a sports psychologist (the same one Levi visited this past winter) and ideas similar to what you mention have been discussed. Training can indeed provide some confidence for your abilities on race day, but ultimately your racing performances will/should be better than your training performances. So, you will probably be looking back on previous (successful) racing performances to give you confidence about what you can do in races more than you will think about training performances. However, part of the confidence on race day will come from how well you prepared yourself (mostly physically) in training.

As an example, last year at our CA District Championships I did the team sprint with Larry and Peter. We did all three age groups including elite, and all 3 of our rides were within 35 minutes. It was very, very hard but we managed to win all 3 races.

Less than a month later at the masters national championships Larry and I did the team sprint with Vince. During our second lap Vince's chain came off. We were granted a re-ride but since we had been in the final heat we had to do our re-ride as soon as his chain was put back on-less than 6 minutes after our first ride. On the start line we were all still breathing hard and quivering from the first effort but Larry reminded me that we had already done this a month earlier. We won by more than a second.

As I have no means of accurately calculating the power levels on Sunday, I shall exclude it from my TSS for the week.I think if you count your Sunday rides at the rate of ~1.20-1.25 TSS points per minute that will be close enough. By contrast, the L4 efforts are ~1.67 TSS points per minute.

I think if you count your Sunday rides at the rate of ~1.20-1.25 TSS points per minute that will be close enough. By contrast, the L4 efforts are ~1.67 TSS points per minute.
Believe it or not, it rained again all day Sunday after they had forecast dry weather. So I'm enjoying 3 days off (Sat,Sun,Mon). However, I shall be back with a bang (or plop;) ) tomorrow Tues to get the 240Watt week out of the way ASAP, so we can get onto the serious stuff of 250W etc.:D

Btw, I think it was netscriber who was matching my figures in training. At what point are you now NS - 270Watts FT?:)

Btw, I think it was netscriber who was matching my figures in training. At what point are you now NS - 270Watts FT?:)IIRC, NS was on injured reserve (back problems). But, my guess is that he's chomping at the bit to come after you. Watch out, he's so light that his w/kg ratio will be through the roof. Boy, do I wish I had his weight this coming September for my hill climb TT.:D

You might want to wait until the promised comparative performance study comes out, comparing the iBike with SRM, PT, Ergomo and Polar (or at least some of them).
Hi RapDaddyo,
which promised comparison are you talking about? Who is doing it?

Thanks for the info:)

Cheers,

Hi RapDaddyo,
which promised comparison are you talking about? Who is doing it?

Thanks for the info:)

Cheers,This one. The following is an email I received from John Hamann (iBike) last October.

Thank you for your inquiry.

The comparative data you seek is being created by Cooper Institute of Dallas TX. It will be posted on our website as soon as possible, which should be around the end of the month. We don't expect, nor do we ask, for recommendations until people are personally convinced. Also, skepticism of new technology is fair. Therefore we will let third parties provide you the data you need to become convinced.

We are well aware of the limitations of the HAC4; they result from the kinds of sensors used and the severe approximations they make to estimate the effects of aerodynamic drag. We do not use their sensor approach and we do not use their approximations. The first equation of the Kraig Willett piece (we are familiar with his article) is, essentially, the one we are solving. To do so we are using innovative sensor technologies and proprietary algorithms to determine ALL of the forces of his power equation. The sensors we use and the algorithms we have created are proprietary. At some point we may choose to reveal more technical details but at this point we aren't prepared to do so. We will let the power data speak to the efficacy of our technical approach.

I hope you will check out our website later this month to see the test results. I think you will be amazed.

All the best,
John Hamann

So where are the "later this month" test results?:D


That reminds me RD. What happened to the document? :rolleyes:

So where are the "later this month" test results?:D Don't look to me, I didn't make the promise. I'm just the messenger.


That reminds me RD. What happened to the document? :rolleyes:Actually, you're in luck. I finished a large document today that frees up some time to finish it. I was waiting to get some more info on trainers (for a section on "How to Train with Power Without a Power Meter."), but I'm going to just go with what I have. So, I'll make a promise -- by the end of this week I will post the document.;)

Actually, you're in luck. I finished a large document today that frees up some time to finish it. I was waiting to get some more info on trainers (for a section on "How to Train with Power Without a Power Meter."), but I'm going to just go with what I have. So, I'll make a promise -- by the end of this week I will post the document.;)Can't wait - I hope it's not an Ibike promise.:D

RD, I thought you might want to see how the first day @ 240Watts went.

1x20 @ 240W - Quite easyish
1x10 @ 240W - Last 3 mins quite hard.

Knew I'd never pump out another 240W interval so did:

1x10 @ 230W

So how's it going? - Tomorrow will tell!;)

RD, I thought you might want to see how the first day @ 240Watts went.
1x20 @ 240W - Quite easyish
1x10 @ 240W - Last 3 mins quite hard.
Knew I'd never pump out another 240W interval so did:
1x10 @ 230WWell done. I'm impressed that the first 20 was easy. Now, I realize you're fixated on your plan, but I think 3x20s @ 230W would put you closer to your October goal (assuming your schedule permits). There's a continuous tradeoff between volume and intensity, with every individual effort and with every week's cumulative effort. You can actually do L4 efforts at ~210W and above at your current fitness. When you back off the intensity as little as 10W, it's amazing what happens to one's maximum duration. You might think that 10W is less than 5% of your FTP. But, remember that the 1st 100W is basically free, so 10W is really ~8% of the part of your FTP that represents incremental effort. That's huge at the margin.

Well done. I'm impressed that the first 20 was easy. Now, I realize you're fixated on your plan, but I think 3x20s @ 230W would put you closer to your October goal (assuming your schedule permits). There's a continuous tradeoff between volume and intensity, with every individual effort and with every week's cumulative effort. You can actually do L4 efforts at ~210W and above at your current fitness. When you back off the intensity as little as 10W, it's amazing what happens to one's maximum duration. You might think that 10W is less than 5% of your FTP. But, remember that the 1st 100W is basically free, so 10W is really ~8% of the part of your FTP that represents incremental effort. That's huge at the margin.
OK, so what I think I'll do this week is mix it up a bit. Tomorrow shall attempt 3x230W. Bear in mind though, last week on the best day (Wed) I only did
1x35 @ 230W
2x10 @ 230W
That's 15 mins short of the hour!:(

OK, so what I think I'll do this week is mix it up a bit. Tomorrow shall attempt 3x230W.I predict you'll handle this just fine. The 10W makes a huge difference.