It's killing me but..........

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The more I think about that day on May 7th when I did 1x20 @ 250W followed by 1x10 @ 250W and finished off with 1x7 @ 240W, the more freaky I think it was. Perhaps the Aerobike was out of order!:D Nope. Within a few weeks, you're going to knock off a full 60min 250W effort (and none of this cadence flip-flopping at the end -- rock solid for 60min at the same cadence). You may need to bring friends and family to drag you home after the ride, but you will do a full hour at 250W. That will be a major milestone.:D

Nope. Within a few weeks, you're going to knock off a full 60min 250W effort (and none of this cadence flip-flopping at the end -- rock solid for 60min at the same cadence). You may need to bring friends and family to drag you home after the ride, but you will do a full hour at 250W. That will be a major milestone.:D
This sounds like a command to me.:D A few weeks btw is a bit vague, I assume you're talking about 11-15 weeks - yes?

Oh, I forgot to tell you RD, my computer is going in for it's 5 year service so I shall be uncontactable for a few weeks or maybe a few months if they uncover any major problems with it. But have no fear, I shall be thinking of you daily.;)

This sounds like a command to me.:D Prediction.

A few weeks btw is a bit vague, I assume you're talking about 11-15 weeks - yes?Let's say by the end of August.

Oh, I forgot to tell you RD, my computer is going in for it's 5 year service so I shall be uncontactable for a few weeks or maybe a few months if they uncover any major problems with it. But have no fear, I shall be thinking of you daily.;)Nice try.:D

Prediction.

Let's say by the end of August.

Nice try.:D
:o Did you spot my deliberate spelling mistake? Whoever spots it first gets to do my 250 Watts for a full hour with no flip-flopping.:D

250 Watts for a full hour with no flip-flopping.:DBTW, I'm very interested in this benchmark for you. It is in part because I have begun to more fully appreciate 40-60min L4 intervals myself. The classic L4 interval set is perhaps 2x20s. But, even if you do 2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration, there's a vast difference between that ride and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power. I have now worked these into my weekly rides and I can tell you first-hand that they are brutal and there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness. Especially on a trainer, they are just relentless. By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power. And, you know who knocks these off on a regular basis? Andy C. That guy's got one tough mental approach to cycling. I'm glad he's not in my age group. He can have his fun with Wayne Stetina, et al.:D

BTW, I'm very interested in this benchmark for you. It is in part because I have begun to more fully appreciate 40-60min L4 intervals myself. The classic L4 interval set is perhaps 2x20s. But, even if you do 2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration, there's a vast difference between that ride and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power. I have now worked these into my weekly rides and I can tell you first-hand that they are brutal and there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness. Especially on a trainer, they are just relentless. By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power. And, you know who knocks these off on a regular basis? Andy C. That guy's got one tough mental approach to cycling. I'm glad he's not in my age group. He can have his fun with Wayne Stetina, et al.:DThis gets worse.:( Why not do 1x2hours at 90% of FTP and let's be done with it! I can't be bothered with all this flippity-floppiting about, let's do the real man's intervals!:D

I'm off to the gym - see yah.:)

This gets worse.:( Why not do 1x2hours at 90% of FTP and let's be done with it! I can't be bothered with all this flippity-floppiting about, let's do the real man's intervals!:DHmmm, excellent idea.:D

BTW, I'm very interested in this benchmark for you. It is in part because I have begun to more fully appreciate 40-60min L4 intervals myself. The classic L4 interval set is perhaps 2x20s. But, even if you do 2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration, there's a vast difference between that ride and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power. I have now worked these into my weekly rides and I can tell you first-hand that they are brutal and there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness. Especially on a trainer, they are just relentless. By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power. And, you know who knocks these off on a regular basis? Andy C. That guy's got one tough mental approach to cycling. I'm glad he's not in my age group. He can have his fun with Wayne Stetina, et al.:D

There is very little physiological benefit to beating your head against the wall like that, just for "training". Not good for riders' motivation, especially over the long term. Training should be as close to fun as possible whenever possible. Maintaining motivation is very important. It is also important that the rider see some direct benefit for training that is the most difficult, and just because it is difficult doesn't mean it's the best use of training time and energy. Ask a good coach about this.

I know guys who TT at the top of their age group and they're not doing one hour long intervals at their limit like that more than once in a great while. They're doing road races and criteriums nearly every week and the best pros are often doing stage races around the time of their most important TT's. Variety of stimulii is good. Work on the weaker components of the overall performance, whether that's a 200m sprint or a 40k flat TT. Don't overuse the idea of specificity.

RD, I know I wasn't due to post my figures for this week until Friday, but after today's session I have to try and figure out what's going on.

Keep in mind on the 6th of this month my VO2 Max session went like this:

1x5 @ 280W
3x5 @ 270W

Following that I did:

AWC
1x2 @ 290W
2x2 @ 288W

Anyway, after a not so good Sunday (more on this Friday), on Monday I attempted 1x5 @ 270W. After 90 secs - phut!

Yesterday (Tues) I had off and a massage to boot, with 20 mins spent on the old legs.

Today again attempted 1 x 5 @ 270W. After 2 mins - phut! Tried 260W, after 1 min - phut! The strange thing was, my HR hovered around 126BPM.

Spun for a while then attemted 35 min at 230W. After 20 mins had had enough. Spun a little longer, and by now it was coming up to 50 mins on the bike and all I'd done was 1x20 @ 230W that was any good.

So in anger decided to change gears in my attitude and to lift my self both physically and mentally. Kept spinning until the hour was up, then I put the boot down covering up the display with a towel so that I would have no idea what my HR was or anything else. Entered 230W and Wham! The cadence shot up to 90-100 and I felt brilliant - an absolute piece of cake. Then I made my first mistake; after 10 mins I dropped to 100 Watts and thought, as I feel good I'll have another crack at the VO2Max intervals - phut!

Still angry, after 4 mins rest at 100W I again put my foot down and repeated the above 1x10mins @ 230Watts.

One thing this session did tell me is that when I think I'm tired doing 20 min intervals, I'm only just warming up and with a little self-pyschological boosting, I can do more than I think.

As for the VO2Max - I have no idea whatsoever as to what the problem is.:confused:

Tyson

As for the VO2Max - I have no idea whatsoever as to what the problem is.:confused:My guess -- motivation. This happens to me all the time. Even when I know that it is 100% motivation, it's still very real. I usually just bag the session and get some rest that day or do what you did and just drop the intensity to low L4 and ride for a while.

My guess -- motivation. This happens to me all the time. Even when I know that it is 100% motivation, it's still very real. I usually just bag the session and get some rest that day or do what you did and just drop the intensity to low L4 and ride for a while.
I don't think it was motivation, there was just nothing in the legs although they didn't feel particularly heavy or anything. Do you think I should try again tomorrow?

I don't think it was motivation, there was just nothing in the legs although they didn't feel particularly heavy or anything. Do you think I should try again tomorrow?It's hard to say, because it's probably not possible to diagnose what it was. You have increased your volume somewhat, so it's possible it was residual fatigue from your prior workouts. But, chances are that all the physiological markers of the first few minutes of your VO2MAX efforts (HR, perceived effort) were identical to previous efforts that you were able to complete. VO2MAX and AWC efforts require a fairly high level of motivation. In my case, I know it's not going to be easy but that it's going to be over in x minutes so I just bear down and do them. But, they are work and that fact can't be glossed over. Following what you describe, I have come back the next day and have been firing on all cylinders. But, I have also come back the next day and felt the same. In the latter event, I put in another easy day and try again the next day. Eventually, I get so mad at myself for being a wuss that I really rip it. Go figure.

One thing this session did tell me is that when I think I'm tired doing 20 min intervals, I'm only just warming up and with a little self-pyschological boosting, I can do more than I think.That is an important take-away. The psychological part of training is huge. I think our bodies can handle way more than we throw at them. The (future) drug they are going to have to ban will be the drug that acts exclusively on our brain and causes us to feel no discomfort from high-intensity efforts.:D

There is very little physiological benefit to beating your head against the wall like that, just for "training".So, you believe that 40-60min L4s are "beating one's head against a wall?" Interesting. At what point does one begin beating one's head against the wall? 30min efforts? 20min efforts?

Not good for riders' motivation, especially over the long term. Training should be as close to fun as possible whenever possible.All high-intensity efforts (the core of "training") is relatively hard work. I don't know that I would characterize any high-intensity efforts as purely "fun." Gratifying and satisfying, perhaps, but I'm not sure I would call them "fun." Beyond that, I think riders are motivated by different things. I am motivated by progressing toward my own personal genetic limits within the constraint of available training time.

Maintaining motivation is very important. It is also important that the rider see some direct benefit for training that is the most difficult, and just because it is difficult doesn't mean it's the best use of training time and energy.I also believe in maintaining motivation. I just fail to see the linkage between 40-60min L4s and destroying motivation.

I know guys who TT at the top of their age group and they're not doing one hour long intervals at their limit like that more than once in a great while. They're doing road races and criteriums nearly every week and the best pros are often doing stage races around the time of their most important TT's.That's a way to approach training. Is that the only way?

Variety of stimulii is good. Work on the weaker components of the overall performance, whether that's a 200m sprint or a 40k flat TT. Don't overuse the idea of specificity.So, including a 40-60min L4 in my workout schedule is somehow compromising my variety of stimuli? One hour out of ~15 hours/week on the bike? Gee, it doesn't seem to me to be a very large part of my training.

hello ive been reading a lot of this tread again and the whole thing seems like
morrocan training they do

am - run of 30 - 50 minutes at 80% vo2max or faster(im making up the80% number anyway it is quality oriented,like 3'/km so verry near threshold)

pm - workout or easy jog.


what i wonder i never saw results or avg. speed of your 160 k tt. What speed where you riding before falling?
I also ride stationary only an im curious howd yo do.

I don't think it was motivation, there was just nothing in the legs although they didn't feel particularly heavy or anything. Do you think I should try again tomorrow?I have reflected a bit more on your Mon/Tues rides, the ones I characterize as "Hello, engine room!" I call them that because when that happens to me, this little cartoon pops in my head. The Captain of the ship is at the helm and yells into one of those brass tubes, "Hello, engine room, more power!" As he puts his ear to the tube, he hears loud and clear, "Screw you!"

I think your body has to adapt to both intensity and volume and does so with a lag. When I increase my volume, I usually have a few days such as you described in the first few weeks. They aren't days when I can't ride, but it just seems as though I have no power. My first response is to maintain intensity within the training level (e.g., L4) and cut back the durations to the minimum (e.g., 10mins) and/or take longer recovery durations. My second response is to just go easy and basically bag the workout. I think the cause is some residual fatigue from prior workouts. In my case, it has worked itself out within 3-4 weeks even though there were some days my legs felt as though they had about as much power as wet noodles.

This is where TSS would be useful. I hope you're computing it and I'd be interested in seeing your TSS numbers for the last few weeks and for the weeks just prior to your century ride (excluding your taper week).

So, you believe that 40-60min L4s are "beating one's head against a wall?" Interesting. At what point does one begin beating one's head against the wall? 30min efforts? 20min efforts?

It's more about your description of the interval than the length, and what it accomplishes vs. the costs.

...Beyond that, I think riders are motivated by different things. I am motivated by progressing toward my own personal genetic limits within the constraint of available training time.

That would not include "wasting" time doing things that are not optimally productive? A one hour effort at your limit doesn't address your specific weaknesses within that type of effort, whether that effort mimics your future races, or not. With at least some brief rests in the ~hour you would actually be able to perform more work, if only because your tense muscles, posture, mind, etc. would be refreshed by the brief rest. Physically, you will return to virtually the same useful training stimulus within a few minutes of resuming the effort.

Training time and energy are in fact limited. Maybe for you there are psychological limits but for me it is nearly always a physical limit that I am banging against. No drug that blocked the pain and suffering would also speed my recovery so that I could do more total work in training.

No real psychological limits for me in training. Probably has to do with training plans that are optimal, efficient, motivating, successful, fun, and with an interesting variety. Probably also helps that I have a stong belief in my training because it is prescribed by someone who has helped many others reach their potential, and who also understands the importance of training that doesn't ask the rider to beat themselves up for little or no gain.

As an example, he (Max Testa) has said that a major reason he can't ask a good rider to do a one hour TT to assess their "FTP" is because the rider says, "Why should I kill myself, for that?" For what is possibly gained the cost is too high. Training that is more optimal for an objective(s) would be preferred.

So, including a 40-60min L4 in my workout schedule is somehow compromising my variety of stimuli? One hour out of ~15 hours/week on the bike? Gee, it doesn't seem to me to be a very large part of my training.

That one hour of L4, per your description of it, does take a big toll on you, mentally and physically. It is misleading to say it's just 1 hour of 15 because it is really 1 hour of the time you allot each week for training your x ability. So it is one hour of maybe 2-4 hours (for training x ability), not 15. The effort also affects the other training you can do because your energy in a week, and month is limited.

IOW, this week we'll devote 3 hours of training for x ability. Let's make the most of that 3 hours. Or, we need to spend 16 minutes of energy this week specifically for improving ability near VO2max. Let's make the most of that 16 minutes.

That one hour of L4, per your description of it, does take a big toll on you, mentally and physically.Well, I'm very curious as to why you see a 40-60min continuous L4 effort as taking a larger toll physically than 2-3 20min efforts. From a physiological perspective, I don't see a 60min L4 as different from 3x20s (nor do I consider them physiologically more beneficial than 3x20s). To me, the challenge of a 60min L4 is mental, the requirement to intensely concentrate for 60mins. But, the mind is very resilient and recovers faster than any muscle in the body. On a TSS basis, 1x60 L4 is equal to 3x20 L4s (assuming the same intensity). So, I guess you are rejecting TSS as a valid measure of total training stress. Anyway, I don't expect you to agree with me about the value of 40-60min L4s in training because Max doesn't believe in them. I'm just surprised at your characterization of them as "wasting" training time. But, I understand where you're coming from. We just disagree. Cheers.

Well, I'm very curious as to why you see a 40-60min continuous L4 effort as taking a larger toll physically than 2-3 20min efforts. From a physiological perspective, I don't see a 60min L4 as different from 3x20s (nor do I consider them physiologically more beneficial than 3x20s). .

Here is what you said...
"The classic L4 interval set is perhaps 2x20s. But, even if you do 2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration, there's a vast difference between that ride and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power. I have now worked these into my weekly rides and I can tell you first-hand that they are brutal and there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness. Especially on a trainer, they are just relentless. By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power."

Your two paragraphs appear contradictory. You also seem to think that they are useful each week and..."there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness."

I think we both agree that just saying "L4" for intensity relates to a relatively wide range of effort and cost. So, I am not saying that an "L4 effort for an hour straight is bad or wasteful". Riding at your limit for that hour is a different thing, and may well be wasteful, or at least not optimal for most objectives. "Brutal" doesn't mean the training is better. Train the components of a one-hour TT race, each according to its need, and in the optimal way.

Here is what you said...
"The classic L4 interval set is perhaps 2x20s. But, even if you do 2x20s with only a 5min recovery duration, there's a vast difference between that ride and a 40-60min L4 interval at a constant power. I have now worked these into my weekly rides and I can tell you first-hand that they are brutal and there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness. Especially on a trainer, they are just relentless. By the end, I am in full-fledged begging mode, pleading with my body to maintain power."

Your two paragraphs appear contradictory. You also seem to think that they are useful each week and..."there may be nothing better for both physical and mental toughness."

I think we both agree that just saying "L4" for intensity relates to a relatively wide range of effort and cost. So, I am not saying that an "L4 effort for an hour straight is bad or wasteful". Riding at your limit for that hour is a different thing, and may well be wasteful, or at least not optimal for most objectives. "Brutal" doesn't mean the training is better. Train the components of a one-hour TT race, each according to its need, and in the optimal way.I know exactly what I said and it's not at all contradictory. And, I stand by what I said. Long L4s are not physiologically more beneficial than the same cumulative duration with shorter efforts, but I think they are much more challenging mentally (yes, even brutal on a trainer). L4 pace itself isn't so demanding. It's sustaining the pace for an extended period of time that is demanding. I'm not worried in the slightest about recovering mentally from a long L4 effort. It's my body that needs to recover, not my mind. And, who said anything about riding at my limit? I find a 60min L4 at 91%FT to be very demanding mentally, requiring intense concentration during the last 20 mins. Maybe you don't, but I do. And, I find that it builds my confidence in my sustainable power to do them regularly. As I said before, I don't expect to convince you. We just disagree. Let's leave it there. Cheers.