It's killing me but..........

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I don't know why someone would want to do 2-3 min intervals at lower power than 5 min intervals. How large the intensity gap is between your VO2MAX and AWC intervals is a function of the shape of your MP/duration curve. I ride both at ~90% of my max power for the duration. So, for me the power difference is ~40W. The purpose of each is to produce the targeted adaptation. For your AWC efforts, you want to be at least somewhat over 120%FT. I do mine at ~125%FT. Frankly, I find them equally difficult because they're both keyed on the same parameter, 90% of my MP for that duration. 10% less than your max power for the duration is actually a pretty large variance. Think about it. Let's say your 5min MP is 280W. Taking off 10% is 28W. That's a lot. And, there's nothing magic about 5 mins. If you can't do 5mins at 120%FT, then try 4mins. Or 3mins. Yes, you have to do more of them, but each one is more tolerable.I guess it was stupid question - I'll just shut up now until Friday.:o

P.S. Rain again as usual today, Sunday, so started 230Watts week in the gym.;)

Do I understand from the above that it is possible to continue to improve your VO2Max efforts for some time?I've been riding "seriously" for about three years. My VO2Max power, as measured in a real, high-falutin' exercise physiology lab, mask and everything, was about 300 W in January. This agrees really well with my 5-minute maximum power, which has stayed in the range 300-310 almost all year. Yes, that 300w 5min max power comes from focused, rested, all-out tests, not cherry-picking workouts and races.

After I made my post about VO2Max being surprisingly trainable, I had my own VO2Max training surprise on Friday! I did my first structured set of L5 intervals in a long while, planning on 4x4minutes. I started them out aiming for something like 300W, but could immediately tell they were two easy. I ended up banging out the first three at around 320W. I got curious, and instead of doing a fourth 4-minute interval, I did my own little VO2Max field test: 333W. So, I'm living proof: I, an adult cyclist with a much higher "training age" than you made an 11% improvment in power at VO2Max in a few months.

Now if I could only figure out why it happened! Like I said, this was my first structured L5 work since, like, May. Admittedly, 5-minute power is an imperfect proxy for VO2Max. I know my AWC has improved, but it's still pretty lame-o in the grand scheme of things, so, with the pre-fatigue of the other three L5 intervals, and only 2:30 rest between them I think that 333W number is about right. The evidence is mounting that I was suffering from some mild form of the overtraining syndrome before my two weeks off in late June. I know "overtraining", like "bonking" and "peaking", gets thrown around way too loosely in cycling circles, but given the extreme performance improvement I'm seeing after a longish complete layoff, I'm willing to use "the O word."

I'm living proof: I, an adult cyclist with a much higher "training age" than you made an 11% improvment in power at VO2Max in a few months.I agree. In fact, depending on how well it was trained previously, I think the potential for improvement is even greater. For example, I raised my 5min MP by 35% in ~6 months. During this time, I raised my FTP by only ~18%. And, I don't think I have reached my upper limit on VO2MAX. I think Tyson is probably closer to my starting point for my 35% gain than he is to your starting point for your 11% gain. Same thing for AWC. I think 30-40% improvement in each is not outside the realm of possibility. Just think about it, Tyson. Let's say your max 5min power today is 280W. A 35% increase puts it at 378W. As I said a few posts back, when your 5min MP is 360W, I think you can start thinking about a serious assault on FTP=300W.:D

I... made an 11% improvment in power at VO2Max in a few months.

How much did your FTP improve during that period of time?

How much did your FTP improve during that period of time?My VO2Max number is from around the time when I first got a power meter, so a dearth of data makes me a little less confident about my FT from then. But, I think it went from around 255 to around 270-some...

My VO2Max number is from around the time when I first got a power meter, so a dearth of data makes me a little less confident about my FT from then. But, I think it went from around 255 to around 270-some...

So, your Vo2max power apparently increased almost twice as much as your FTP increased during those months. I agree that is quite possible, but for your case, why do you think that happened?

So, your Vo2max power apparently increased almost twice as much as your FTP increased during those months. I agree that is quite possible, but for your case, why do you think that happened?Actually, I'm quite puzzled about it. I've spent most of these six months focusing on L4, while seeing it barely budge. Then, I take a complete lay-off for two weeks, and see the following effects:

Really solid AWC gains, from the very first day back.
A backslide in FT to around 250, which quickly came back up to 270 after about 15 days' back on the bike.
This mysterious apparent VO2Max improvement, without much improvement in FT to go along with it.
Certainly some kind of chronic staleness (if you don't like the term "overtraining") might be involved, but that doesn't really explain the pattern of results: train L4 like a madman for five months, then go completely rest for 12 days, and see big gains in L5 and L6???

Actually, I'm quite puzzled about it. I've spent most of these six months focusing on L4, while seeing it barely budge. Then, I take a complete lay-off for two weeks, and see the following effects:

Really solid AWC gains, from the very first day back.
A backslide in FT to around 250, which quickly came back up to 270 after about 15 days' back on the bike.
This mysterious apparent VO2Max improvement, without much improvement in FT to go along with it.
Certainly some kind of chronic staleness (if you don't like the term "overtraining") might be involved, but that doesn't really explain the pattern of results: train L4 like a madman for five months, then go completely rest for 12 days, and see big gains in L5 and L6???

It seems like training for your fast fibers, or enough time for recovery/supercompensation was perhaps a key ingredient for your improvement around VO2max and in AWC, since it is likely that their significant improvement (via needed rest and/or training) would probably help your VO2max and AWC relatively more than helping your L4.

And/or, you need more variety in your training, for the L4 too. Some new/different stimulii could be the ticket, along with more time allowed for rest.

Regarding your L4, take a hard look at the components (especially fiber types) that come together to make your L4 power. It is important to evaluate the components individually, and then to train the weaker component(s), or at least the one(s) with the most potential for improvement, with training specific for each of those components.

IOW, I don't think 2 x 20' at L4 2-3 days a week is what you what you want to do right now. You probably need something more specific for the weak component(s) within your L4.

Do I understand from the above that it is possible to continue to improve your VO2Max efforts for some time?In an earlier post, I said that gains don't necessarily come steadily from week to week. I thought I would illustrate my point with my own 5min MP numbers from last year. In June 2005, after riding for 3 months and beginning to do structured intervals, my 5min MP was 300W. I know because the last minute at 300W was absolutely excruciating and there's no way I could have ridden more than 5 mins. From June to November, I rode VO2MAX intervals every week at 270W (90% of my 5min MP). I haven't computed the total volume by month, but I would estimate that I logged ~60mins/week of L5s. So, here are my 5min MPs (all AP, not NP) by month from June to November.
June 300
July 309
August 314
September 311
October 313
November 405

So, for 5 months I seemed to be "stuck" at ~310-315W and I had raised my 5min L5 interval power to ~280W (90% of 310W). Then, in November, it just kicked in and suddenly I was flying. And, it wasn't just VO2MAX that jumped in November. My entire MP/duration curve seemed to just jump up by huge amounts. If I didn't know better, I would have thought I began taking EPO. One caveat is that I didn't have a rigorous, consistent performance testing strategy during those months. I just rode my high-intensity efforts at what I thought was 90% of my MP for that duration, but I rarely rode an intensity to maximum duration. So, my 5min MP probably crept up a bit during this time but I didn't know it. But, clearly the efforts were having an effect. And, what astonished me was that before I popped the 405W effort I never rode a 5min effort >315W.:D

KMAVM,

I should have added... The backpacking you just finished, if it's like the backpacking I've done, 40 pounds of weight and going up and down mountains all day, it's a lot like SFR training, SE. Definitely helps my abilities at threshold and above. Maybe this addressed a relatively weak component of your L4 and up.

I should have added... The backpacking you just finished, if it's like the backpacking I've done, 40 pounds of weight and going up and down mountains all day, it's a lot like SFR training, SE. Definitely helps my abilities at threshold and above. Maybe this addressed a relatively weak component of your L4 and up.

Yeah, it was about 40 pounds, and up and down mountains. It was good fun, and definitely good rest, and hey, maybe I'm even responding to altitude a little (?). It's hard for me to think of it as "training," though. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it was all at such low intensity. Judging from RPE, it would have been mostly recovery intensity, or with occasional dips into L2.

Thanks for your time and thoughts, by the way! This is becoming the official "get-coached-over-the-internet-for-free" thread...

I should have added... The backpacking you just finished, if it's like the backpacking I've done, 40 pounds of weight and going up and down mountains all day, it's a lot like SFR training, SE. Definitely helps my abilities at threshold and above. Maybe this addressed a relatively weak component of your L4 and up.

Perhaps another piece of the puzzle: the backpacking trip marked a pretty extreme shift in diet. I'd been struggling to limit energy intake for a long time previous. I gained about five pounds up in Colorado; judging from how my clothes are fitting, I think most of those five pounds were muscle. This would be consistent with the AWC improvement, too...

Yeah, it was about 40 pounds, and up and down mountains. It was good fun, and definitely good rest, and hey, maybe I'm even responding to altitude a little (?).
My coach tells me that riders often find themselves going well about 7-10 days after coming down from altitude training. I experienced this after the 2004 Track Nat's in Colorado Springs. Or maybe it was just the effect of the new jersey I got there... :)
I would like to test that idea again in 4 weeks.

Thanks for your time and thoughts, by the way! This is becoming the official "get-coached-over-the-internet-for-free" thread...
Prego. It may also be the longest running thread not about Lance or doping.

In an earlier post, I said that gains don't necessarily come steadily from week to week. I thought I would illustrate my point with my own 5min MP numbers from last year. In June 2005, after riding for 3 months and beginning to do structured intervals, my 5min MP was 300W. I know because the last minute at 300W was absolutely excruciating and there's no way I could have ridden more than 5 mins. From June to November, I rode VO2MAX intervals every week at 270W (90% of my 5min MP). I haven't computed the total volume by month, but I would estimate that I logged ~60mins/week of L5s. So, here are my 5min MPs (all AP, not NP) by month from June to November.
June 300
July 309
August 314
September 311
October 313
November 405

So, for 5 months I seemed to be "stuck" at ~310-315W and I had raised my 5min L5 interval power to ~280W (90% of 310W). Then, in November, it just kicked in and suddenly I was flying. And, it wasn't just VO2MAX that jumped in November. My entire MP/duration curve seemed to just jump up by huge amounts. If I didn't know better, I would have thought I began taking EPO. One caveat is that I didn't have a rigorous, consistent performance testing strategy during those months. I just rode my high-intensity efforts at what I thought was 90% of my MP for that duration, but I rarely rode an intensity to maximum duration. So, my 5min MP probably crept up a bit during this time but I didn't know it. But, clearly the efforts were having an effect. And, what astonished me was that before I popped the 405W effort I never rode a 5min effort >315W.:DFive months sounds like an eternity to me. I was expecting to improve my VO2 Max intervals fairly rapidly. Five months at 270Watts? I can't do it, I can't do it! Let me out.:D
Seriously RD, I just can't imagine that. However, I shall probably find out, as my VO2 Max intervals for tomorrow shall be at 270Watts and next week they will be.....:rolleyes:
Btw,I realize that I haven't built in an easy week into my planned (oops! there's that word you hate) level increases. Maybe I should have an easy week next week before going on to 240Watts. Though quite what form it should take I have yet to consider.;) Tyson

Five months sounds like an eternity to me. I was expecting to improve my VO2 Max intervals fairly rapidly. Five months at 270Watts? I can't do it, I can't do it! Let me out.:DAs I said, I didn't have a rigorous, consistent performance testing process in place during that time. So, my 5MP was probably increasing but I didn't realize it. My other point is that the weekly repetitions were having an effect (along with my other high-intensity volume), in spite of the fact that I was probably low-balling the efforts (across the board). Then, one day I really put the throttle down and, lo and behold, my engine had grown considerably.:D

Btw,I realize that I haven't built in an easy week into my planned (oops! there's that word you hate) level increases. Maybe I should have an easy week next week before going on to 240Watts. Though quite what form it should take I have yet to consider.;) TysonWell, you know that I have cautioned you before about deciding in advance how your body is going to respond to the training (both volume and intensity). The problem with that is that you (and nobody else) knows how your body will respond or on what timetable. There is an alternative and it is what I recommend. Do performance tests regularly, choose your intensities based on your current actual performance (however disappointing it may be to you) and put in the time with the high-intensity efforts. Trust that your body will respond, eventually (on its own schedule). You need to have a long-term view. Aren't the Japanese famous for that?;)

Well, you know that I have cautioned you before about deciding in advance how your body is going to respond to the training (both volume and intensity). The problem with that is that you (and nobody else) knows how your body will respond or on what timetable. There is an alternative and it is what I recommend. Do performance tests regularly, choose your intensities based on your current actual performance (however disappointing it may be to you) and put in the time with the high-intensity efforts. Trust that your body will respond, eventually (on its own schedule). You need to have a long-term view. Aren't the Japanese famous for that?;)
Many people in these forums have talked about overtraining/overextending themselves. I don't know, but I guess that it comes upon you suddenly and by that time it's too late. So I thought a little prudence wouldn't go amiss.
This week I'm handling 230 Watts reasonably comfortably and after the day off today I'm looking forward to tomorrow in the gym. So I guess the old frame is holding up fairly well and not screaming out for release. Therefore I shall go for 240Watts next week, however should it prove difficult, I might just put in another week at 240W before proceeding to 250Watts.

The more I think about that day on May 7th when I did 1x20 @ 250W followed by 1x10 @ 250W and finished off with 1x7 @ 240W, the more freaky I think it was. Perhaps the Aerobike was out of order!:D

And finally, the problem with your last sentence is - I'm not Japanese.;)

And finally, the problem with your last sentence is - I'm not Japanese.;)But, you're surrounded by people who take a long view. Look at their approach to the U.S. automobile market. Their initial products were laughed at. But, they just made steady progress year after year and soon one of the Japanese auto makers will probably own GM. Patience, young man.:D

But, you're surrounded by people who take a long view. Look at their approach to the U.S. automobile market. Their initial products were laughed at. But, they just made steady progress year after year and soon one of the Japanese auto makers will probably own GM. Patience, young man.:D
Oy, who are you calling young man? I'm almost old enough to be your father - well almost, give or take 20 years or so.;)

Anyway, so you mean with patience I shall probably own the "King of the Forum Oldies" title one day.:D

Many people in these forums have talked about overtraining/overextending themselves. I don't know, but I guess that it comes upon you suddenly and by that time it's too late. So I thought a little prudence wouldn't go amiss.

Interesting Article...

http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/rushall7.html

I know it has been talked about on this forum, but just in case there are some that haven't seen it...

Jim

Interesting Article...

http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/rushall7.html

I know it has been talked about on this forum, but just in case there are some that haven't seen it...

Jim
Thanks for that Jim - very interesting. And well written RD.:D