It's killing me but..........

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A tricky one SE. Maybe I didn't explain it clearly enough.

At the moment when I do my sessions in the gym, I try to do all my 20/30 min intervals at 90 strokes per minute plus. Last week all my intervals were done at that cadence. Now let's assume one day I go to the gym and I find my legs are heavy from the previous day - turning the pedals becomes a grind, the HR shoots up well above what it normally is for that given Wattage, and the breathing becomes more laboured. To turn the pedals for any length of time I am forced to lower the cadence and because of the extra stress applied to the legs, I suffer mentally.Under this scenario, I think you're better off getting off the bike and going for a fruit smoothie. It's not that day's workout that you are compromising. It is the benefit (adaptation) from the previous day's ride that you are compromising. Or, if you continue the workout, just spin at a recovery pace. But, I would only do that if I felt I needed to build up my volume to increase my endurance.

A tricky one SE. Maybe I didn't explain it clearly enough. No no. It's just that english isn't my native language. So sometimes I get lost :)

Thanks Tyson ! I'm a fan !

Under this scenario, I think you're better off getting off the bike and going for a fruit smoothie. It's not that day's workout that you are compromising. It is the benefit (adaptation) from the previous day's ride that you are compromising. Or, if you continue the workout, just spin at a recovery pace. But, I would only do that if I felt I needed to build up my volume to increase my endurance.I think you're agreeing with me RD, it's just a question of which day's quality you are compromising. Whether it's the day before's workout (adaption) or today's workout which you could have ridden at a higher quality if you hadn't been tired from yesterday's workout, the end result is you are compromising quality for the sake of getting in the quantity. I think.:(

BTW, having thought more and more about powermeters and at a risk of upsetting trevcooley,:rolleyes: I'm considering the purchase of an Ibike which unlike other powermeters on the market that seem to me to be a bit of a ripoff, is reasonably priced at 400 dollars.

Why a powermeter? I was thinking of one of the hills on my short Sunday ride. It's about 3km long and I'm sure I climb it somewhat below my FTP everytime. It would be nice to see just how much faster I could climb it. I know Trevcooley would say just blast it and see what happens. Could blow up doing it that way though. I think I told you before I climb intuitively, maybe erring on the side of caution.
Anyway, I hope that's made you a little happier.:D

Solarenergy wrote:


No no. It's just that english isn't my native language. So sometimes I get lost

Sorry SE, would it help you if I wrote both in English and Japanese in future?;) TYSON

BTW, having thought more and more about powermeters and at a risk of upsetting trevcooley,:rolleyes: I'm considering the purchase of an Ibike which unlike other powermeters on the market that seem to me to be a bit of a ripoff, is reasonably priced at 400 dollars.You might want to wait until the promised comparative performance study comes out, comparing the iBike with SRM, PT, Ergomo and Polar (or at least some of them). The iBike is not in the same class of device as the others. Rather, it imputes what power must be based on an interpretation of the resistances you are overcoming (gravity, rolling, air). There are other units that impute power (e.g., Ciclo HAC4), not well I might add. Chances are it's going to be right some of the time and wrong some of the time. The key question is, when it's wrong, what are the consequences for training and racing? And, it's likely to respond with a pretty significant lag (e.g., 15-30 seconds) and the same question applies: what are the consequences for training and racing? A used PT Pro is in the same price bracket and I would guess the PT SL will be bumped down a little when the SL2.4 becomes available (I'm guessing September, at Interbike). Anyway, since you do most of your training on a trainer, the main value to you is to manage your power on your Sunday rides. For others (most of us), we need it to train with power. Bottom line, I think you should wait until you have reached your goal of FT=300W. Then, you can go out on your Sunday ride and append a screenshot of your max 1 hr power and gloat.:D

You might want to wait until the promised comparative performance study comes out, comparing the iBike with SRM, PT, Ergomo and Polar (or at least some of them). The iBike is not in the same class of device as the others. Rather, it imputes what power must be based on an interpretation of the resistances you are overcoming (gravity, rolling, air). There are other units that impute power (e.g., Ciclo HAC4), not well I might add. Chances are it's going to be right some of the time and wrong some of the time. The key question is, when it's wrong, what are the consequences for training and racing? And, it's likely to respond with a pretty significant lag (e.g., 15-30 seconds) and the same question applies: what are the consequences for training and racing? A used PT Pro is in the same price bracket and I would guess the PT SL will be bumped down a little when the SL2.4 becomes available (I'm guessing September, at Interbike). Anyway, since you do most of your training on a trainer, the main value to you is to manage your power on your Sunday rides. For others (most of us), we need it to train with power. Bottom line, I think you should wait until you have reached your goal of FT=300W. Then, you can go out on your Sunday ride and append a screenshot of your max 1 hr power and gloat.:DI actually ran out of time and meant to add I was going to wait and see. At this point in time it sounds good. I wouldn't condemn it just yet.

RD, you've often said what a wonderful thing the body is, especially in the way it adapts to greater loads imposed upon it.

You could well have added, it is also at times totally unpredictable.

Last Sunday no surprises it poured with rain again, so after having had 2 days rest rest I thought I would go to the gym and massacre 220Watts. I did 1 x 30 mins @ 220W, took a 5 min rest and bang! I coudn't do a damn thing; felt totally drained and a little nauseous. Crawled off the bike thinking I'm plateauing at 200Watts!:(

Monday the gym is closed so decided to take the trusty steed to the mountains. I did my 57km course, doing as much L4 stuff as I could, and got in some quality L5 on the hills. Felt really good.

But that's not all, forced myself to the gym today thinking that after yesterday's ride and Sunday's debacle I wouldn't be able to do much.

Started of with a 1x20 @ 220Watts - very easy. So did another 1 x 20 @ 220W.with 1 minute rest between. The last 5 mins were hard but...

After 4 mins rest decided to do another 10min @ 220W. The first 4 min felt a little harder than the previous intervals and upon removing the towel from the display I found I had set the Watts @ 230W. So back to 220 for the last 6 mins. As per usual I belted the last minute at 120 cadence then discovered I had another minute to go, so rather than chicken out I kept going like a madman for another minute and that was me DONE!

So how does one explain that? Beats me.

Incidentally 300 watts now seems more distant than ever :(

Looking back over my figures, the best session I ever did was on the 7th May.
1x20 @ 250
1x10 @ 250
1x7 @ 240

Bearing those figures in mind, I shouldn't really have any trouble up to 250Watts and I wasn't doing VO2max/AWc training at that time. We shall see.;) Tyson

Last Sunday no surprises it poured with rain again, so after having had 2 days rest rest I thought I would go to the gym and massacre 220Watts. I did 1 x 30 mins @ 220W, took a 5 min rest and bang! I coudn't do a damn thing; felt totally drained and a little nauseous. Crawled off the bike thinking I'm plateauing at 200Watts!:( These days happen to all of us. Some days the power just isn't there, no matter how much you want it to be. Sometimes I drop my durations back (e.g., 10mins) and take longer rests in between each high-intensity effort (e.g., 10mins). But, sometimes I just bag it and stop.

Started of with a 1x20 @ 220Watts - very easy. So did another 1 x 20 @ 220W.with 1 minute rest between. The last 5 mins were hard but... After 4 mins rest decided to do another 10min @ 220W. The first 4 min felt a little harder than the previous intervals and upon removing the towel from the display I found I had set the Watts @ 230W. So back to 220 for the last 6 mins. As per usual I belted the last minute at 120 cadence then discovered I had another minute to go, so rather than chicken out I kept going like a madman for another minute and that was me DONE!This just says that your Sunday workout was an aberration. The good thing is that you're increasing your volume. I think you will see a faster rate of progress if you (eventually) work yourself up to 3x20s @ 100%FT. Bear in mind that 3x20 is a 50% increase in volume! That's huge.

Well, finished the week at a paltry 220Watts.

Yesterdays session went like this:

1x5mins @ 280W
2x5mins @ 270W (couldn't mange the 4th interval - don't know why)

3x90secs @ 300W

2x10mins @ 220W

1x1min @ 300W

Today (not a normal training day)
1x20min @ 220W

Haven't worked out the TSS for the week, but it's definitely up on last week.

I could be wrong, but one thing this week seems to indicate (looking at my VO2max/AWC figures) is that a 300Watt FT is a pipe dream. I reckon I'll plateau out at around 270 or 280W if I'm lucky.:(

Ah well, and I was so looking forward to joining the 300Watts club.:D

Onto 230Watts next week. Tyson

I could be wrong, but one thing this week seems to indicate (looking at my VO2max/AWC figures) is that a 300Watt FT is a pipe dream. I reckon I'll plateau out at around 270 or 280W if I'm lucky.:( How do you figure? VO2Max is significantly trainable, even for "trained" cyclists. The only way to find out where yours might top out is to keep pushing the edge of the envelope. And yes, a 300W FT might be impossible for you; the 300W club is more exclusive than most imagine. The only way to find out is to keep training, though.

How do you figure? VO2Max is significantly trainable, even for "trained" cyclists.

I think you/he were referring to LT/FT, not VO2max? Or maybe power at VO2max, probably more trainable than "VO2max" itself.

And yes, a 300W FT might be impossible for you; the 300W club is more exclusive than most imagine.

True. True. I am midly surprised to learn from my coach that many Europros are not way over 300 watts. Many are in the 340-370 range. Lance was among the very best and near 420. Part of what they can do so well (and why they can be pros) is the 200-230 watts for hours and hours, and then do 350 for near an hour after that.

Get up at 8am. Eat, read, have a coffee. Go ride. Eat. Get a massage. Sleep. Eat. Sleep. Mow the lawn? Not likely...

How do you figure? VO2Max is significantly trainable, even for "trained" cyclists. The only way to find out where yours might top out is to keep pushing the edge of the envelope. And yes, a 300W FT might be impossible for you; the 300W club is more exclusive than most imagine. The only way to find out is to keep training, though.
Maybe I misread one of RD's statements. I thought one soon reaches the VO2Max figure one is capable of, whereas reaching one's attainable FT took somewhat longer.:o

How do you figure? VO2Max is significantly trainable, even for "trained" cyclists. The only way to find out where yours might top out is to keep pushing the edge of the envelope. And yes, a 300W FT might be impossible for you; the 300W club is more exclusive than most imagine. The only way to find out is to keep training, though.
I found the bit I was looking for from RD.


In case you're wondering why I waited until now to suggest VO2MAX intervals, it is because VO2MAX responds quickly to training but maxes out quickly as well. So, you'll get most of the potential benefit from this training between now and your important rides in a few weeks. The L4 work you have been doing since January is slower to respond so that's why I suggested that you get started with them

Well, finished the week at a paltry 220Watts.Careful, now. Many would be thrilled with an FT of 220W.

1x5mins @ 280W
2x5mins @ 270W (couldn't mange the 4th interval - don't know why)You would probably realize more benefit by dropping power (e.g., to 265W) and doing a full 20mins cumulatively. Let's say that 220W is your current FT. 120%FT=264W.

3x90secs @ 300WThese are good AWC efforts, although again you would probably realize more benefit by dropping power (e.g., to 290W) and doing more of them.

Haven't worked out the TSS for the week, but it's definitely up on last week.You should track TSS.

I could be wrong, but one thing this week seems to indicate (looking at my VO2max/AWC figures) is that a 300Watt FT is a pipe dream. I reckon I'll plateau out at around 270 or 280W if I'm lucky.:(

Ah well, and I was so looking forward to joining the 300Watts club.:DI don't think you should be predicting where you will max out, especially since you have no experience with greater volume of high intensity efforts. Just keep celebrating all improvements and, as you said in an earlier post, consolidate a new level before bumping up the intensity (even if it throws your schedule off). I don't gain increases at a steady rate. Rather, they seem to come in a big jump, then nothing for awhile, then another big jump, and so on. The work you did this week isn't going to pay off next week. Maybe next month, but not next week.

Here is the best precursor I can think of for reaching the FT=300W level. When you are doing 5min VO2MAX efforts at 360W, then I think you can begin thinking of reaching FT=300W (after lots of L4s). In my case, it would be 375W because my 5min/60min MP ratio is closer to 1.25. But, I think 1.20 is more common.

These days happen to all of us. Some days the power just isn't there, no matter how much you want it to be. Sometimes I drop my durations back (e.g., 10mins) and take longer rests in between each high-intensity effort (e.g., 10mins). But, sometimes I just bag it and stop.

This just says that your Sunday workout was an aberration. The good thing is that you're increasing your volume. I think you will see a faster rate of progress if you (eventually) work yourself up to 3x20s @ 100%FT. Bear in mind that 3x20 is a 50% increase in volume! That's huge.


Rd
Question?
If you do your L4 3x20min at 225watts and do your L5 4x5min at 270 (120% of FT) my questions is if you ONLY consentrated & did L4 @225 for weeks to increase it, lets say you re-tested & it went to 3x20 at 235watts, would your L5 5min increase automatically even though you havent trained it? so would you be able to do L5 intervals at 282watts? (120% of the new 235FT)

So what Im trying to say is if you just trained to increase your 20min FT would the other zones go up automatically or do you have to train them individually also to bring them up as well or would your 20min FT go up & you L5 5min still remain at 270watts. Hope I explained this ok.

Thanks
Next Time Im in Vegas I would like to meet you, Im in SC

Rd
Question?
If you do your L4 3x20min at 225watts and do your L5 4x5min at 270 (120% of FT) my questions is if you ONLY consentrated & did L4 @225 for weeks to increase it, lets say you re-tested & it went to 3x20 at 235watts, would your L5 5min increase automatically even though you havent trained it? so would you be able to do L5 intervals at 282watts? (120% of the new 235FT)

So what Im trying to say is if you just trained to increase your 20min FT would the other zones go up automatically or do you have to train them individually also to bring them up as well or would your 20min FT go up & you L5 5min still remain at 270watts. Hope I explained this ok.No, there is some spillover effect, especially from L4 to L5 and L6. There's a great chart in Hunter's and Andy's book that shows this graphically (p. 55). I like to think of L4-L6 as a hierarchy, with L4 on top, then L5, then L6. Adaptation benefits trickle down better than they trickle up. This is especially true for AWC efforts -- they mainly benefit AWC and nothing else.

Next Time Im in Vegas I would like to meet you, Im in SCGreat. Bring your clothes and pedals and we'll find you a bike and go for a ride. If you come at the end of September, we have the Interbike show. You can see (and ride) the hottest new equipment on the market (both mountain bikes and road bikes). And, our weather begins to be great again by then (it's a bit hot now). I'm guessing Saris will have the new SL2.4 at this year's show.

Careful, now. Many would be thrilled with an FT of 220W.

You would probably realize more benefit by dropping power (e.g., to 265W) and doing a full 20mins cumulatively. Let's say that 220W is your current FT. 120%FT=264W.
If you remember I did the full 20 minutes last week with the above figures .
1x280 plus 3x270. 4x270 shouldn't be a problem



These are good AWC efforts, although again you would probably realize more benefit by dropping power (e.g., to 290W) and doing more of them.
How many would you suggest? Don't worry I found the answer way back. 10x2minutes:eek: And does it matter if the VO2Max figure and the AWC figure are within 10 watts say of each other?

You should track TSS.I know, but I've got to go back through some 30 odd pages to find the formula. Am going to do that in a minute.


I don't think you should be predicting where you will max out, especially since you have no experience with greater volume of high intensity efforts. Just keep celebrating all improvements and, as you said in an earlier post, consolidate a new level before bumping up the intensity (even if it throws your schedule off). I don't gain increases at a steady rate. Rather, they seem to come in a big jump, then nothing for awhile, then another big jump, and so on. The work you did this week isn't going to pay off next week. Maybe next month, but not next week.
That was a question I was going to ask you. Does one experience a sudden quantum leap in progress at times along of course with no discernible advances at other times?


Here is the best precursor I can think of for reaching the FT=300W level. When you are doing 5min VO2MAX efforts at 360W, then I think you can begin thinking of reaching FT=300W (after lots of L4s). In my case, it would be 375W because my 5min/60min MP ratio is closer to 1.25. But, I think 1.20 is more common.
Damn, the bikes in the gym only go up to 350Watts.:D

Do I understand from the above that it is possible to continue to improve your VO2Max efforts for some time? I thought one reached a peak fairly rapidly.
See your own quote in my earlier post today.

One final note. I could be wrong but 220 Watts felt very easy to me, only laziness and boredom prevented me from doing more. (and a binned Shuffle :mad: ) Having said that, this week I trained Sun, Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri - a first for me. I'm attempting to step up the volume as you advised.
Anyway, next week is 230Watts and based on this week I feel fairly confident. After all, I've been there before on less training.;)
P.S. My cycling buddy is down to 67Kilos now from 72K. I will require some power to match him on the hills now.:( TYSON

4x270 shouldn't be a problemThat's a good plan.

does it matter if the VO2Max figure and the AWC figure are within 10 watts say of each other?Not really. If you look at Andy's definition, AWC is simply defined as 121+%FT. There's a pretty fine line between VO2MAX and AWC.

That was a question I was going to ask you. Does one experience a sudden quantum leap in progress at times along of course with no discernible advances at other times?Well, that's how it works for me. In my document (inching toward completion), that's one of my points and I use my own results last year to illustrate. I realized gains in big jumps and then went for several weeks with no clear increases in power. And, the first sign that I had FT=300W in my gunsights was when I began knocking off 5min intervals at 360+W. And, the day I really knew it was within my grasp was the day I climbed my 3.5 mile 6% hill at ~350W (~14min effort). I had to reach the point where 300W was about 15% less than what I could sustain for 10-15 min. To ride for an hour at a given power, you can't start struggling with maintaining the power until about the last 15-20 minutes. If you start struggling at 15 mins, you'll never make it.

Do I understand from the above that it is possible to continue to improve your VO2Max efforts for some time? I thought one reached a peak fairly rapidly. See your own quote in my earlier post today.Well, compared with aerobic efficiency, it peaks more quickly. But, in your case you have done relatively little work on VO2MAX so you probably have a long ways to go before you peak.

One final note. I could be wrong but 220 Watts felt very easy to me, only laziness and boredom prevented me from doing more. (and a binned Shuffle :mad: ) Having said that, this week I trained Sun, Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri - a first for me. I'm attempting to step up the volume as you advised.
Anyway, next week is 230Watts and based on this week I feel fairly confident. After all, I've been there before on less training.;)Don't expect to see any results from the increased volume immediately, but in a month I think you will begin to see results. Just be patient.:D

[QUOTE]Well, that's how it works for me. In my document (inching toward completion), that's one of my points and I use my own results last year to illustrate. I realized gains in big jumps and then went for several weeks with no clear increases in power. And, the first sign that I had FT=300W in my gunsights was when I began knocking off 5min intervals at 360+W. And, the day I really knew it was within my grasp was the day I climbed my 3.5 mile 6% hill at ~350W (~14min effort). I had to reach the point where 300W was about 15% less than what I could sustain for 10-15 min. To ride for an hour at a given power, you can't start struggling with maintaining the power until about the last 15-20 minutes. If you start struggling at 15 mins, you'll never make it.I think that answers my question pretty well. Hopefully the same applies to me. However, going for several weeks without any discernible increase in power, must have been frustrating. It seems that patience is a virtue - everything comes to he who waits. (within reason;) )


Well, compared with aerobic efficiency, it peaks more quickly. But, in your case you have done relatively little work on VO2MAX so you probably have a long ways to go before you peak.
This is really good news - roll on 350Watts!:D

Don't expect to see any results from the increased volume immediately, but in a month I think you will begin to see results. Just be patient .:D

Beginning to feel excited again and am having a job to work steadily through the power levels and not trying to rush things. I know doing it this way will eventually pay dividends, so shall bite the bullet and continue to increase the level of pain at an even pace.:D

Beginning to feel excited again and am having a job to work steadily through the power levels and not trying to rush things. I know doing it this way will eventually pay dividends, so shall bite the bullet and continue to increase the level of pain at an even pace.:DYou've got it. You may not reach your peak as quickly as you would like, but I guarantee you that when you find your peak this way it will be absolutely rock solid. When you go for a ride, you won't have any apprehension whatsoever about riding at a target power because you know you have it in the tank. Riding on the bubble won't be a new experience, it'll be just "Ho-hum, another day on the bubble. When's lunch?":D

You've got it. You may not reach your peak as quickly as you would like, but I guarantee you that when you find your peak this way it will be absolutely rock solid. When you go for a ride, you won't have any apprehension whatsoever about riding at a target power because you know you have it in the tank. Riding on the bubble won't be a new experience, it'll be just "Ho-hum, another day on the bubble. When's lunch?":D
That's fine RD, as long as the bubble doesn't burst.:D

I've been doing some thinking about VO2Max and AWC. Taking a 20 minute training session, with the former you are pushing for a psychological longer duration, but then you have a longer recovery between intervals. With the latter you have less psychological pressure with the thought "I only have to continue for 2 minutes", but on the other hand you have the nagging thought of having to do 10 of the beggars.
I could be wrong, but I imagine some riders prefer VO2 Max intervals to AWC intervals because of the sheer number of AWC intervals one has to do to make up the 20 minutes.
Now, RD you said it's a fine line between the two, so the power levels coud be fairly close. Is it just conceivable that some people do their AWC intervals at a lower power than their VO2Max intervals. Or is this a definite no, no?

Does anyone out there have any thoughts on the above and how close are your power levlels to each other regarding the above? TYSON

That's fine RD, as long as the bubble doesn't burst.:D

I've been doing some thinking about VO2Max and AWC. Taking a 20 minute training session, with the former you are pushing for a psychological longer duration, but then you have a longer recovery between intervals. With the latter you have less psychological pressure with the thought "I only have to continue for 2 minutes", but on the other hand you have the nagging thought of having to do 10 of the beggars.
I could be wrong, but I imagine some riders prefer VO2 Max intervals to AWC intervals because of the sheer number of AWC intervals one has to do to make up the 20 minutes.
Now, RD you said it's a fine line between the two, so the power levels coud be fairly close. Is it just conceivable that some people do their AWC intervals at a lower power than their VO2Max intervals. Or is this a definite no, no?I don't know why someone would want to do 2-3 min intervals at lower power than 5 min intervals. How large the intensity gap is between your VO2MAX and AWC intervals is a function of the shape of your MP/duration curve. I ride both at ~90% of my max power for the duration. So, for me the power difference is ~40W. The purpose of each is to produce the targeted adaptation. For your AWC efforts, you want to be at least somewhat over 120%FT. I do mine at ~125%FT. Frankly, I find them equally difficult because they're both keyed on the same parameter, 90% of my MP for that duration. 10% less than your max power for the duration is actually a pretty large variance. Think about it. Let's say your 5min MP is 280W. Taking off 10% is 28W. That's a lot. And, there's nothing magic about 5 mins. If you can't do 5mins at 120%FT, then try 4mins. Or 3mins. Yes, you have to do more of them, but each one is more tolerable.