It's killing me but..........

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I think you want to target ~15-20 mins of L6 efforts cumulatively. Let's say you do them at 2mins each with a recovery of 2-3 mins between each. That's a 40-60 min ride, depending on your initial warmup. As to power, I'd say somewhere between 280-300W. You can estimate your 2min MP based on your AWC test. It's probably ~310W. If you ride your 2min efforts at 90% of your MP, that would be 279W. That's my rule, 90% of MP. I assure you the last 2-3 will be very hard to complete. The second hand gets stuck in the mud after ~5 of these. The key is that you must learn to relax doing these. Yeah, yeah, I know, how the hell do I relax at 280W? It's easy. Relax your upper body completely. Relax your neck. Don't grip the bars at all, just make a "V" with your thumb and first finger and cradle the bars so you won't be tempted to wrap your fingers around them and pull. Put all your mental energies into the downstrokes. Make them smooth as butter, forceful but smooth. Maintain your cadence within +/- 1rpm. Before you know it, 2mins is over. Piece of cake.:DWell that all sounds very nice RD, in fact it sounds like a bunch of laughs - I don't think!:( The old adage of "There's no gain without pain" somehow springs to mind; I wonder why?:rolleyes:
Ah well, that's it, I now have all the weaponry I need. Need to do what, I'm not quite sure but I shall plug on.
Btw, on the 26/27 August is probably the biggest cycling event in Japan, the Shimano "Suzuka" Road with 2 days of some 50 different races. There are races for all ages from 7 year olds up. There are team races, 1 hour races, over 30, 40, 50, 60 individual races, open races aged 15 and up etc. And I think the last race of 58.2km is the International Elite race. Am still debating what to enter.

KMAVM wrote:



Actually, L7 when done properly is less painful than L6. This is because L7 strictly works with neuromuscular power, using creatine and ATP as substrates. A proper L7 effort is all over before things get painful; by the time things get painful, you're training anaerobic capacity, not neuromuscular power.

L6 is the gold standard for a miserable work-out. For my money, nothing in the world hurts as much as a truly maximal 1 minute effort. Shudder.Today 02:26 AM

Well, that is comforting to know, I look forward to many miserable work-outs in the gym.:D

Anyway, so we don't bore the pants of people, I shall next report in after completion of the 250 Watts week. Unless of course there's some startling news.

Following a discussion with RapDaddyo, I am going to post my weekly figures to assist RD in creating my Critical Power Curve (to be explained in the upcoming "Document"). The method of creating your own CPC will be explained, and will help us to be more accurate in setting interval power targets and from this our FT.
I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, but watch this space.:D
So RD, starting with last Sunday the week has gone like this:

Sunday.

57 km - hard on about 10km of hills and 30-40 kmh on the level bits.

Tues: 2 minutes 15 secs @ 300 Watts was me done.
After 5 mins rest did 2 x 20 plus 1 x 10 all at 200W with a cadence of 90 -110.

Wed: Not normally a training day but did 1x30 @ 200Watts

Thurs: 2x5mins @ 260 plus 1 x 2mins @ 260
In other words my VO2max is completely shot.:(

After 5 mins @ 100W did 6x30secs @ 350 Watts These were full 30 secs - did not count the 20 secs it takes to reach 350W from 100W!

These were a hell of a lot easier than the VO2max intervals.
In fact I asked the gym manager if he could tweak the bike I normally ride up to 400Watts. After consulting manuals -no can do!
The answer I suppose is longer intervals at 350Watts.;)

To finish off did 1x20 @ 200Watts

Next week 210W and so on. TYSON

Tues: 2 minutes 15 secs @ 300 Watts was me done.
Thurs: 2x5mins @ 260 plus 1 x 2mins @ 260
In other words my VO2max is completely shot.:(These are very revealing. Obviously, we overestimated the power target (at this time) for your VO2MAX efforts. Maybe it's 250W (it may not be obvious, but 10W is actually a huge difference in this part of your power/duration curve). You should be able to do 4x5 without dropping power, especially if you recover an equal duration (5m) between each effort. But, this is excellent information (even though you may be disappointed). Some of the most valuable information we obtain on training rides is obtained from efforts we cannot complete. In fact, I test myself every week during my routine rides by attempting to ride certain segments at a power target that I don't think I can sustain for the entire duration. Sometimes I put these efforts early in the ride when I'm fresh and sometimes I intentionally put them late in the ride when I'm fatigued.

After 5 mins @ 100W did 6x30secs @ 350 Watts These were full 30 secs - did not count the 20 secs it takes to reach 350W from 100W!These are basically AWC efforts, but probably not as beneficial as the 2min efforts. 350W isn't high enough to benefit your neuromuscular power and you may have to do your neuromuscular efforts on your road bike (10-20s at full power).

After 5 mins @ 100W did 6x30secs @ 350 Watts These were full 30 secs - did not count the 20 secs it takes to reach 350W from 100W!


Remember that your stationary bike isn't exactly a powermeter. Most likely, it uses wheel speed to estimate power, which means it's only accurate at a consistent speed. Or, in other words, your actual power during the 20 seconds of acceleration is probably more than 350 watts. So I would definitely count them as part of the interval.:D

These are very revealing. Obviously, we overestimated the power target (at this time) for your VO2MAX efforts. Maybe it's 250W (it may not be obvious, but 10W is actually a huge difference in this part of your power/duration curve). You should be able to do 4x5 without dropping power, especially if you recover an equal duration (5m) between each effort. But, this is excellent information (even though you may be disappointed). Some of the most valuable information we obtain on training rides is obtained from efforts we cannot complete. In fact, I test myself every week during my routine rides by attempting to ride certain segments at a power target that I don't think I can sustain for the entire duration. Sometimes I put these efforts early in the ride when I'm fresh and sometimes I intentionally put them late in the ride when I'm fatigued.

These are basically AWC efforts, but probably not as beneficial as the 2min efforts. 350W isn't high enough to benefit your neuromuscular power and you may have to do your neuromuscular efforts on your road bike (10-20s at full power).I can't believe how far downhill I've gone.:mad:

I'm also getting a little confused with all this terminology, so please bear with me while I sort it out.

The 2 x 20/30s I understand.
4 x 5 mins = VO2 max session
6 x 30secs @ 350 has no value?:(
Should do 2mins @ ???Watts = what kind of session - is this AWC ???
And now we have neuromuscular power intervals @ full power for 10 -20 secs.
What will this help, besides sprinting for 10 to 20 secs?

WW wrote:

Remember that your stationary bike isn't exactly a powermeter. Most likely, it uses wheel speed to estimate power, which means it's only accurate at a consistent speed. Or, in other words, your actual power during the 20 seconds of acceleration is probably more than 350 watts. So I would definitely count them as part of the interval
Thanks WW, so I actually did somewhere near 6 x 50 secs.:)
Actually thinking about it you're probably right. As you wind it up it, of course it gets more and more difficult and when you get near the 350W point it requires quite an effort, but once you're up to speed at 350W it becomes a little easier

I'm also getting a little confused with all this terminology, so please bear with me while I sort it out.

The 2 x 20/30s I understand.
4 x 5 mins = VO2 max session
6 x 30secs @ 350 has no value?:(
Should do 2mins @ ???Watts = what kind of session - is this AWC ???
And now we have neuromuscular power intervals @ full power for 10 -20 secs. What will this help, besides sprinting for 10 to 20 secs?Okay, let's try this. This is covered in the document and is in fact one of the main purposes of the document. The purpose of training is adaptations, physiological and/or psychological. The "Big 5" adaptations are endurance, aerobic efficiency (LT), VO2MAX, AWC and neuromuscular. Each adaptation is targeted with a power/duration combination. While there are an infinite number of power/duration combinations that will result in at least some adaptation, some are better (i.e., more efficient) than others. My view is that L1-L3 targets endurance. Anything >=91%FT and >=10mins in duration (L4) targets aerobic efficiency, with 2x20 being the common set but many variations are equally effective. I do L4 efforts at every duration from 10-90 minutes. BTW, if you think a 90min L4 effort (even at the bottom of the power range) is a piece of cake, think again. It's a bitch. Anything >=106%FT and >=3mins in duration (L5) targets VO2MAX. My preference is to use ~120%FT and ~5mins duration as a very efficient effort for targeting VO2MAX. But, you might have to ride at 120%FT in 3min durations. No problem, just do more of them. If you use an equal recovery duration, there's no difference in the time it takes to do 20mins of L5 efforts at 3mins per effort versus 5mins per effort. It's still 40mins total (20m on + 20m off). Anything >=121%FT and >=30sec in duration (L6) targets AWC. I prefer the longer end of the duration range (2-3mins) at ~90% of whatever my max power is for that duration (from my CP curve). This is usually ~150%FT. Full power efforts for ~15-20secs targets neuromuscular. I prefer to do 60-160rpm accelerations in one gear for these, beginning at ~12mph. My goal is to get to 160rpm absolutely as fast as possible. I try to accelerate cadence with each stroke with each leg. IOW, I'm not trying to push as hard as possible, I'm trying to increase cadence as much as possible. My only goal is to get to 160rpm. When I get to 160, I'm done. If I can get there in 5 secs, great (but I can't).

As to your comment about 6x30 @ 350W, it's not that it has no value. It's that it's too long for neuromuscular and is not very efficient for AWC. It's in sort of "no man's land." Anyway, I don't think you need to be targeting neuromuscular at this time. You'll get a bigger payoff by allocating your time to L4-L6.

Okay, let's try this. This is covered in the document and is in fact one of the main purposes of the document. The purpose of training is adaptations, physiological and/or psychological. The "Big 5" adaptations are endurance, aerobic efficiency (LT), VO2MAX, AWC and neuromuscular. Each adaptation is targeted with a power/duration combination. While there are an infinite number of power/duration combinations that will result in at least some adaptation, some are better (i.e., more efficient) than others. My view is that L1-L3 targets endurance. Anything >=91%FT and >=10mins in duration (L4) targets aerobic efficiency, with 2x20 being the common set but many variations are equally effective. I do L4 efforts at every duration from 10-90 minutes. BTW, if you think a 90min L4 effort (even at the bottom of the power range) is a piece of cake, think again. It's a bitch. Anything >=106%FT and >=3mins in duration (L5) targets VO2MAX. My preference is to use ~120%FT and ~5mins duration as a very efficient effort for targeting VO2MAX. But, you might have to ride at 120%FT in 3min durations. No problem, just do more of them. If you use an equal recovery duration, there's no difference in the time it takes to do 20mins of L5 efforts at 3mins per effort versus 5mins per effort. It's still 40mins total (20m on + 20m off). Anything >=121%FT and >=30sec in duration (L6) targets AWC. I prefer the longer end of the duration range (2-3mins) at ~90% of whatever my max power is for that duration (from my CP curve). This is usually ~150%FT. Full power efforts for ~15-20secs targets neuromuscular. I prefer to do 60-160rpm accelerations in one gear for these, beginning at ~12mph. My goal is to get to 160rpm absolutely as fast as possible. I try to accelerate cadence with each stroke with each leg. IOW, I'm not trying to push as hard as possible, I'm trying to increase cadence as much as possible. My only goal is to get to 160rpm. When I get to 160, I'm done. If I can get there in 5 secs, great (but I can't).

As to your comment about 6x30 @ 350W, it's not that it has no value. It's that it's too long for neuromuscular and is not very efficient for AWC. It's in sort of "no man's land." Anyway, I don't think you need to be targeting neuromuscular at this time. You'll get a bigger payoff by allocating your time to L4-L6.Phew! Give me time to digest all that RD and I'll come back to you.;)

I broke it down a bit RD, hope you don't mind.

The purpose of training is adaptations

physiological and/or psychological.

The "Big 5" adaptations are

1) endurance

2) aerobic efficiency (LT)

3) VO2MAX

4) AWC

5) neuromuscular.



Each adaptation is targeted with a power/duration combination. While there are an infinite number of power/duration combinations that will result in at least some adaptation, some are better (i.e., more efficient) than others.



My view is that L1-L3 targets endurance.



Anything >=91%FT and >=10mins in duration (L4) targets aerobic efficiency.

2x20 being the common set but many variations are equally effective - every duration from 10-90 minutes.



Anything >=106%FT and >=3mins in duration (L5) targets VO2MAX. My preference is to use ~120%FT and ~5mins duration as a very efficient effort for targeting VO2MAX. But, you might have to ride at 120%FT in 3min durations. No problem, just do more of them.



If you use an equal recovery duration, there's no difference in the time it takes to do 20mins of L5 efforts at 3mins per effort versus 5mins per effort. It's still 40mins total (20m on + 20m off).



Anything >=121%FT and >=30sec in duration (L6) targets AWC. I prefer the longer end of the duration range (2-3mins) at ~90% of whatever my max power is for that duration (from my CP curve). This is usually ~150%FT.



Full power efforts for ~15-20secs targets neuromuscular. I prefer to do 60-160rpm accelerations in one gear for these, beginning at ~12mph. My goal is to get to 160rpm absolutely as fast as possible. I try to accelerate cadence with each stroke with each leg. IOW, I'm not trying to push as hard as possible, I'm trying to increase cadence as much as possible. My only goal is to get to 160rpm. When I get to 160, I'm done.



As to your comment about 6x30 @ 350W, it's not that it has no value. It's that it's too long for neuromuscular and is not very efficient for AWC. It's in sort of "no man's land."

Btw, what is your view on L1-L3, you didn't finish the sentence? I think you've said before that you don't rate them much. I don't do them anyway except perhaps on my Sunday ride on the bike.I'm glad you asked because I am frequently misquoted on this topic. I discount L1-L3 for the purpose of increasing power, either aerobic efficiency, VO2MAX, AWC or neuromuscular. However, I view L1-L3 as good for increasing endurance. I never have any specific goals for weekly L1-L3 time (i.e., all of my training objectives are stated in terms of total time in L4-L7), but inevitably it accounts for about half of my training time because I find it difficult to get my L4-L7 time > 50% of total time. Why? Warmups, cooldowns, recovery durations and group rides. When I analyze my ride time, I don't even differentiate between L1, L2 and L3. It just goes in a bucket called "other." Why? Because I don't care about the breakdown.

The post crash comeback continues.

I have gone back over all my pre-crash figures and I don't like what I see.
The training was erratic as hell. So I'm even more convinced that what I'm doing now is the right way to go - slow but dead sure.

This week went as follows:

Sunday (rain) so went to the gym.

1x30 @ 210Watts
1x20 @ 210Watts

Tues

1x30 @ 210Watts
1x20 @ 210watts

followed by a "feeler" session
1x1min @ 280W
2x1min @ 270W
1x1min @ 260W

Today Thurs (VO2max + AWC session)

1x5min @ 280Watts Felt I was pushing almost 100% so dropped it down.
3x5min @ 270Watts Learnt to relax and the last interval felt the easiest

1x2min @ 290Watts
2x2min @ 280Watts

Finished off with

1x20min @ 210Watts.

That last 20 minutes felt like I was out on my shopping bike heading for a picnic.:D

My advice to anyone following this thread is, consolidate your present power level before moving on to the next level.
To me that was a good solid week and the last days results augur well for next week's 220Watt intervals.

This week at 210Watts was so easy I'm sorely tempted to skip a level or 2.
However, the satisfaction of doing a good solid week has as I said convinced me to take it steady at 10 watts increase per week. In one short month I shall be back at 250/260 watts but hopefully rock steady unlike previously.;)
TYSON

My advice to anyone following this thread is, consolidate your present power level before moving on to the next level.
To me that was a good solid week and the last days results augur well for next week's 220Watt intervals.

This week at 210Watts was so easy I'm sorely tempted to skip a level or 2.
However, the satisfaction of doing a good solid week has as I said convinced me to take it steady at 10 watts increase per week. In one short month I shall be back at 250/260 watts but hopefully rock steady unlike previously.;)
TYSONTyson, this is one of the most important posts of this entire thread. I will have more to say about this post, but have to head off on a ride right now. But, the insights you have gained post-crash as reflected in this post are absolutely awesome! More later.:D

This week went as followsSo, here's my take on your week.
L4 2:20
L5 0:20
L6 0:10
Total L4-L6 2:50

This is good, but if you are serious about reaching 300W we need to talk about the dreaded "V" word - volume. Everybody's schedule is different due to work, family and life. But, if you want to reach your potential (whatever it may be) I think volume comes into the equation in addition to intensity. Just by way of contrast, here are my numbers this week through today.
L4 5:33
L5 0:32
L6 0:30
L7 0:03
Total L4-L7 6:38
I'll add another 90 mins at L4, 15 mins each to L5 and L6 and a couple of mins at L7 between now and Saturday for a total L4-L7 for the week of 8:40. Like you, I have begun to ramp up for a target event in the fall. Mine are in late September, so I may be a little further down the curve. I expect no immediate payoff from this volume. Rather, I am laying the foundation now for really solid numbers by September 1st. Now, I'm not suggesting that you match my volume. I'm just telling you what it is as a point of contrast. I thrive on volume and my body can handle it. When I log >6 hrs/wk at L4+, my numbers really begin to ramp up. My legs get so accustomed to the push required on the downstroke that I think they're really confused when I am not calling on them to push. You will realize some very nice progress with your current volume. But, if you're serious about punching through the FT=300W barrier, you may want to look at your schedule and see if you can increase your volume. And, if you do increase your volume I suggest that you increase it slowly and keep a very careful eye on how your body responds. Don't expect an immediate response. It's more like the 2-day rule: what you do today will show up in two days.

Today Thurs (VO2max + AWC session)

1x5min @ 280Watts Felt I was pushing almost 100% so dropped it down.
3x5min @ 270Watts Learnt to relax and the last interval felt the easiestThis is huge, fabulous.:cool: I'm thrilled that you learned to relax at 270W. This is the key thing one has to learn to increase sustainable power. When I am riding at L4 and above, my entire concentration goes into total relaxation of every muscle in my body other than from my hips down. I consciously relax my neck, back, arms and fingers. I don't want any unnecessary efforts to detract from my body supplying oxygen and energy to my quadriceps.

My advice to anyone following this thread is, consolidate your present power level before moving on to the next level. To me that was a good solid week and the last days results augur well for next week's 220Watt intervals.I agree 100%. The gains will come by putting in the hours at the right power target as a function of where you are right now, not where you want to be or where you were 3 months ago when you were romping up the hills at XXX watts. You finish the week feeling good, anxious for next week and higher targets. Pushing too much power not only doesn't do you much good but psychologically it's devastating. You finish the week feeling defeated because you aren't where you want to be. Bad stuff.

Keep up the good work. Your post is solid gold.:D

Looking at your totals which are very impressive, it seems that I need to inject some more L4 work. However, I think there is a fine line between achieving the right amount of volume (quantity) and overdoing it at the expense of quality.

To me it is a fine balancing act, knowing just how much work (volume) to put in without affecting the next training session adversely. Strangely enough, it wasn't until after yesterday's session in the gym that I felt that I could increase the volume. Bear in mind that all last week, my training was in the gym with no wind blowing through my hair, ever changing scenery, whirr of the tires and dare I add, no missing of a few strokes (coasting) here and there.;)

Still, enough of the excuses, hopefully you will see a significant increase in volume next week L4-wise and perhaps even a narrowing of the gap between us with L5 and L6 work - volume that is, not higher Wattage.

Looking at your totals which are very impressive, it seems that I need to inject some more L4 work. However, I think there is a fine line between achieving the right amount of volume (quantity) and overdoing it at the expense of quality.Actually, I don't think you need to sacrifice quality at all. I don't. My honest belief is that many people have a very low ratio of "quality" time to total time in the saddle. I consider quality time to be time at L4 and above. My ratio of L4-L7 time to total time is now ~50%. But, I spend ~16 hours/week on my bike and that is a commitment many are not prepared to make. But, even if I rode only 8-10 hrs/wk on the bike, my L4-L7 time would still be 4-5 hrs/wk. You will realize a faster rate of progress if you increase your volume to, say, 3.5-4 hours at L4-L6. But, again, don't rush it and back off immediately if you feel any adverse effects.

Actually, I don't think you need to sacrifice quality at all. I don't. My honest belief is that many people have a very low ratio of "quality" time to total time in the saddle. I consider quality time to be time at L4 and above. My ratio of L4-L7 time to total time is now ~50%. But, I spend ~16 hours/week on my bike and that is a commitment many are not prepared to make. But, even if I rode only 8-10 hrs/wk on the bike, my L4-L7 time would still be 4-5 hrs/wk. You will realize a faster rate of progress if you increase your volume to, say, 3.5-4 hours at L4-L6. But, again, don't rush it and back off immediately if you feel any adverse effects.Knowing when you are sacrificing quality is the tricky bit. The only way I can think of judging it is, when you have to lower the cadence to a point where it becomes a drag on the knees and you start wishing the session was over.
That is, a cadence somewhat lower than 90.

It seems to me that when you are spinning along at 90 plus, as long as your heart and lungs can handle it, that's the 'comfortable zone' . Maybe I'm wrong.:( TYSON

Knowing when you are sacrificing quality is the tricky bit. The only way I can think of judging it is, when you have to lower the cadence to a point where it becomes a drag on the knees and you start wishing the session was over. That is, a cadence somewhat lower than 90.I think that every minute that meets both the power and duration criteria for a particular training level (e.g., L4) is a "quality" minute. L4 and above have both power and duration criteria and if an effort meets both criteria then it is quality training time. The tradeoff comes in the form of the stress of one ride compromising what you can do the next day. For that reason, one doesn't usually do L5 or L6 efforts on back-to-back days. Personally, I use TSS to ensure that one ride doesn't compromise another ride. This is because TSS measures the total stress of a ride, encompassing both intensity and duration. I have found by trial and error that I can do pretty much anything I want the day following a ride with a TSS score of 180 or less. At TSS=200 or greater, I try to take the day off the following day. And, 180-200 is sort of a gray area. See, I don't think your body adapts based on how a ride felt. I think it adapts to the stress you subject it to, plain and simple. It's the brain that gets all hung up on the other stuff.

One more thing. If the stress of a ride compromises your ride the next day, what is more important is that your body's adaptation is probably compromised as well. The actual adaptation doesn't occur during the high intensity effort but rather in the hours afterwards. That's why those who train hard talk so much about the importance of recovery. What they mean by recovery is actually adaptation.

Knowing when you are sacrificing quality is the tricky bit. The only way I can think of judging it is, when you have to lower the cadence to a point where it becomes a drag on the knees and you start wishing the session was over.
That is, a cadence somewhat lower than 90.
And if I can add my 2cents, higher cadence doesn't really mean higher quality or higher power.

I rode with a friend of mine yesterday, 47yo. Fairly slow on flat (easily gets drop when the power reaches roughly 200w for too long). But yesterday, during a hill session, I realized that he could routinely stand roughly 290w for 7 minutes.

On the flat though, he spins like a fly (105-110rpm to my estimation). He, like many others, was influanced by that school of thoughts that promote very high cadence (>=100rpm) for everyone.

My conclusion was that on the flat, he might be overspining. That results into a lower power that he can sustain... maybe.

So in his case, higher cadence may mean less quality.

Knowing when you are sacrificing quality is the tricky bit.The volume question raises many issues such as the one you posed (quality) and the other usual suspects (e.g., overtraining). The problem with this entire set of issues is that they are largely anecdotal. I firmly believe that we are all very different in our tolerance of volume and that it is essential to have a metric we can use from week to week to manage total training stress. I again endorse TSS because I use it and have confidence in it. As you begin to increase volume, I strongly encourage you to compute your weekly TSS and make notes on any obvious symptoms such as any muscular soreness, general fatigue or inability to maintain power on an otherwise routine ride. Somewhere earlier in this thread, I gave you the formulas for computing TSS manually. You might want to dust those off.:D

So, here's my take on your week.
L4 2:20
L5 0:20
L6 0:10
Total L4-L6 2:50

This is good, but if you are serious about reaching 300W we need to talk about the dreaded "V" word - volume. Everybody's schedule is different due to work, family and life. But, if you want to reach your potential (whatever it may be) I think volume comes into the equation in addition to intensity. Just by way of contrast, here are my numbers this week through today.
L4 5:33
L5 0:32
L6 0:30
L7 0:03
Total L4-L7 6:38

:D


Hey Rap, im wondering with all the L4 time you do, how long can you maintain your "sweet spot" power, low end of L4? I'm working on trying to maintain mine for 2 1/2 hours. any idea how long it is possible to maintain a low level L4 in most fit trained riders? im working on this on a 25 mile mountain climb. im talking a steady ride, no stops, no drafting.

Hey Rap, im wondering with all the L4 time you do, how long can you maintain your "sweet spot" power, low end of L4? I'm working on trying to maintain mine for 2 1/2 hours. any idea how long it is possible to maintain a low level L4 in most fit trained riders? im working on this on a 25 mile mountain climb. im talking a steady ride, no stops, no drafting.Hi zaskar,

A big chunk of my current L4 time is in 3x20 sets on my trainer (due to the heat) at 100%FT. I do this almost every day, as a base for my training. My L4 durations on my road rides vary all over the map from 91% and above, depending on duration. When I do long L4s (e.g., 40-90 mins), I do them at the very bottom end of the range. One of my target events is the Mt. Charleston Hill Climb in mid-September (17.5 miles at ~6.5% avg grade). This sounds somewhat like your 25 mile climb, where I'll need to ride 90-120 mins at ~90-95%FT. Once I get into the 2nd half of August, I'll start doing my 3x20s on the trainer as 2x30s and eventually 1x60 (now, that requires concentration). Plus, I'll start going out and climbing the actual ride as a non-stop training ride at least once a week. I will say this. Six plus hours a week at L4 sure makes FT pace begin to seem "normal."

And, my specific answer to your question is 120 minutes as the outside limit at 91%FT. At least for me.

And if I can add my 2cents, higher cadence doesn't really mean higher quality or higher power.

I rode with a friend of mine yesterday, 47yo. Fairly slow on flat (easily gets drop when the power reaches roughly 200w for too long). But yesterday, during a hill session, I realized that he could routinely stand roughly 290w for 7 minutes.

On the flat though, he spins like a fly (105-110rpm to my estimation). He, like many others, was influanced by that school of thoughts that promote very high cadence (>=100rpm) for everyone.

My conclusion was that on the flat, he might be overspining. That results into a lower power that he can sustain... maybe.

So in his case, higher cadence may mean less quality.
A tricky one SE. Maybe I didn't explain it clearly enough.

At the moment when I do my sessions in the gym, I try to do all my 20/30 min intervals at 90 strokes per minute plus. Last week all my intervals were done at that cadence. Now let's assume one day I go to the gym and I find my legs are heavy from the previous day - turning the pedals becomes a grind, the HR shoots up well above what it normally is for that given Wattage, and the breathing becomes more laboured. To turn the pedals for any length of time I am forced to lower the cadence and because of the extra stress applied to the legs, I suffer mentally.
In other words I've lowered the quality by not performing as well as I could at that given wattage because the previous day's quantity has left me drained.

I agree with what you are saying if my intention was to do all the intervals at a cadence of 60 say, and that is what I did. Quality (I assume) would not be affected. I think in a nutshell, the difference is between intentionally training at a low cadence and being forced to train at a low cadence.

If you understand all that, then you're a better man than I am.:D

Tyson