It's killing me but..........

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To hell with the hospital!You'll find that your VO2MAX has detrained the most. When you begin to ramp it up to the power levels you were riding before, you'll find that you are more out of breath and your HR will probably be a few bpm higher, but your legs should be fine. Within a week to 10 days, you should be mostly back to pre-crash levels. I'm working on a document for you going forward, the what, why and how. Maybe I'll call it, "How to beat RDO.":D

You'll find that your VO2MAX has detrained the most. When you begin to ramp it up to the power levels you were riding before, you'll find that you are more out of breath and your HR will probably be a few bpm higher, but your legs should be fine. Within a week to 10 days, you should be mostly back to pre-crash levels. I'm working on a document for you going forward, the what, why and how. Maybe I'll call it, "How to beat RDO.":DThanks for the comforting words RD, however, I don't agree with your vaticination. I shall say no more until after Thursday's session in the gym.:)

I can't wait to see this "document". A more appropriate title might be something like, "How to inflict torture on your fellow man."

Saying that, I might just settle for a more gentle title.


"How RD was ground into the dirt.":D

TYSON

I hate to admit it RD but you were right, I've taken quite a big step backwards.

After 1x60 @ 150W on Sunday & 1x50 @ 200W on Tuesday, I thought I'd be back on track today. Not so!:(

The long layoff and the viral infection have taken their toll.

As I said a couple of weeks back, I wanted to try the Aerobike max of 350Watts, just to see what it feels like. Did one solid minute and was puffing nicely at the finish.

Then did 1x10 @ 250watts and a 1 x5 @ 250 Watts. The needle was then reading on empty; couldn't even buid up the enthusiasm for 200 Watts.

End of session - very disappointing.:confused:

However, realistically I couldn't have expected much more and look forward to a V02 max session on Sunday. Can't go out on the bike as we are now in the rainy season and Sunday is rain.

Which brings me nicely to my next question RD. In Andy Pruitt's book, he says V02max intervals can be done at 2-5 minute intervals for 20 mins.
I assume if you do 2 minute intervals, you do 10 with a 2 minute rest between each. What is the difference in effect if any of shortening the intervals?
Psychologically, I feel it would be less stressful, and if you do 2 minute intervals rather than 5 minutes, do you do them at a higher Wattage?

I hate to admit it RD but you were right, I've taken quite a big step backwards.

After 1x60 @ 150W on Sunday & 1x50 @ 200W on Tuesday, I thought I'd be back on track today. Not so!:(

The long layoff and the viral infection have taken their toll.

As I said a couple of weeks back, I wanted to try the Aerobike max of 350Watts, just to see what it feels like. Did one solid minute and was puffing nicely at the finish.

Then did 1x10 @ 250watts and a 1 x5 @ 250 Watts. The needle was then reading on empty; couldn't even buid up the enthusiasm for 200 Watts.

End of session - very disappointing.:confused: It's really pretty amazing how much one detrains in a couple of weeks. But, it's also pretty amazing how fast you can come back to where you were. My suggestion is to drop back to ~200W and gradually work your way back up. You'll know when to increase power when it gets boring to ride at the reduced power. What has detrained the most is your VO2MAX. Your AWC would have detrained as well if you had worked on it, but you didn't. So, I'd say 2x20s @ 200W and 4x5s @ 240W for a week and then increase gradually as you begin to get bored.

Which brings me nicely to my next question RD. In Andy Pruitt's book, he says V02max intervals can be done at 2-5 minute intervals for 20 mins. I assume if you do 2 minute intervals, you do 10 with a 2 minute rest between each. What is the difference in effect if any of shortening the intervals? Psychologically, I feel it would be less stressful, and if you do 2 minute intervals rather than 5 minutes, do you do them at a higher Wattage?Well, first, I make it a point to avoid criticizing anybody else's prescription for training. Rather, I prefer to explain my rationale for what I do. I do VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT (the upper end of Andy's recommended range) and 5mins is about 60% of my max duration at that power. So, a 5min 120%FT interval is not really very hard for me. But, it would be much harder if my max duration at 120%FT was, say, 6mins. And, it would be impossible if my max duration at 120%FT was, say, 4mins. I think 3mins is about the minimum duration I would want to use for VO2MAX intervals, but I don't see the argument for doing them at less than 60% of one's max duration at the target power. Give it a try. Ride at 120%FT for as long as you can. Then you can ride your weekly VO2MAX intervals at, say, 70-80% of that duration and know that you're well within your limitations. Max durations at a given power level are very revealing (and they are good training). I agree that ~20mins of VO2MAX intervals (cumulatively) is a good target. I'll cover VO2MAX and other targeted adaptations (physiological and psychological) in my upcoming document.

It's really pretty amazing how much one detrains in a couple of weeks. But, it's also pretty amazing how fast you can come back to where you were. My suggestion is to drop back to ~200W and gradually work your way back up. You'll know when to increase power when it gets boring to ride at the reduced power. What has detrained the most is your VO2MAX. Your AWC would have detrained as well if you had worked on it, but you didn't. So, I'd say 2x20s @ 200W and 4x5s @ 240W for a week and then increase gradually as you begin to get bored.

Well, first, I make it a point to avoid criticizing anybody else's prescription for training. Rather, I prefer to explain my rationale for what I do. I do VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT (the upper end of Andy's recommended range) and 5mins is about 60% of my max duration at that power. So, a 5min 120%FT interval is not really very hard for me. But, it would be much harder if my max duration at 120%FT was, say, 6mins. And, it would be impossible if my max duration at 120%FT was, say, 4mins. I think 3mins is about the minimum duration I would want to use for VO2MAX intervals, but I don't see the argument for doing them at less than 60% of one's max duration at the target power. Give it a try. Ride at 120%FT for as long as you can. Then you can ride your weekly VO2MAX intervals at, say, 70-80% of that duration and know that you're well within your limitations. Max durations at a given power level are very revealing (and they are good training). I agree that ~20mins of VO2MAX intervals (cumulatively) is a good target. I'll cover VO2MAX and other targeted adaptations (physiological and psychological) in my upcoming document.
Thanks for your lengthy reply RD. I think although as you say detraining is obviously having an effect, I suspect having had a fever with a sore throat and swollen neck glands is playing no small part in my backward step.

I'll go along with your suggestion for the VO2 max session on Sunday, however, as last Tuesday's session of 1 x 50 @ 200W wasn't difficult at all until the last 5 mins (when I assume the adverse effects of the above kicked in), although I wasn't planning on training tomorrow, I think I'll go to the gym and do 1 x ??? @ 200W with no rest. I think at the moment I need to get training minutes under my belt in order to get back to normal ASAP.

One small problem I didn't mention; my training buddy who always hovered around 72kilos as gone a diet eating less breakfast etc. He's now 67 kilos!:eek:
I can't hope to get down that low, especially as I'm a few inches taller than him. 69 kilos I think is my limit without starting to lose power. So the only way I can counteract his weight loss is to generate more power.
Watch this space, as this animal gets wound up!;)

Btw, when do I start on the AWC training - can't wait!:D TYSON

Btw, when do I start on the AWC training - can't wait!:D TYSONAnytime you want. Why don't you start by finding your max duration at, say, 300W. I'm guessing it's in the range of 30s-3m, the ideal duration for AWC intervals. You won't ride your AWC intervals at 100% of your max duration, but this will give us a good idea what your power target should be for AWC intervals.

Anytime you want. Why don't you start by finding your max duration at, say, 300W. I'm guessing it's in the range of 30s-3m, the ideal duration for AWC intervals. You won't ride your AWC intervals at 100% of your max duration, but this will give us a good idea what your power target should be for AWC intervals.
LOL RD, you didn't read my last post. I did a good solid 1 minute @ 350W, so I would guess a figure of 1 minute or less for 300W has got to be wrong. One minutes 15 seconds - 3 mins would be somewhere nearer me thinks.:D

Also I think we are fast approaching a time where we should let this thread fade into obscurity as it must be a big yawn for people now. So doing would also mean your not having to answer my inane questions all the time.;)

LOL RD, you didn't read my last post. I did a good solid 1 minute @ 350W, so I would guess a figure of 1 minute or less for 300W has got to be wrong. One minutes 15 seconds - 3 mins would be somewhere nearer me thinks.:DI didn't predict that your 300W max duration was 1 min. I said I thought your 300W max duration was somewhere between 30 secs and 3 mins. I think it would be more beneficial to do your AWC intervals toward the 3 min duration end of the range. As you move up the scale from ~120%FT, the max duration drops like a stone. I think you would find that you can't do repeats of 60s @ 350W, but then maybe you can. Anyway, I treat the L6 intervals like all others (except L7s), in that I ride them well within my max power for the duration because I'm after volume rather than a once-and-done effort. I'm looking for 15-20 minutes of L6 work in a ride.

Also I think we are fast approaching a time where we should let this thread fade into obscurity as it must be a big yawn for people now. So doing would also mean your not having to answer my inane questions all the time.;)You started it. When it has met your needs, shut it down. I'll still post my document when it's ready. Have to finish a major rewrite of a big project first. How does a running count of ride time by training level sound? Yeah, sounds good to me too.:D

One small problem I didn't mention; my training buddy who always hovered around 72kilos as gone a diet eating less breakfast etc. He's now 67 kilos!:eek:

Tyson, your friend has probably been starving himself in an effort to lose weight ever since you blew past him on showdown hill!!!



I can't hope to get down that low, especially as I'm a few inches taller than him. 69 kilos I think is my limit without starting to lose power. So the only way I can counteract his weight loss is to generate more power.
Watch this space, as this animal gets wound up!;)

Btw, when do I start on the AWC training - can't wait!:D TYSON


I'm starving - give me more POWER, I have to have more POWER!


RDO, it's time to feed the monster that you created again.


Also I think we are fast approaching a time where we should let this thread fade into obscurity as it must be a big yawn for people now.

Tyson, if it is fun and helpful for you, I hope you will continue the conversation. When you go back through the thread there is a lot of helpful information that you have drawn out from RDO and others. There was the starting out period, peaking for the big climb and the Lake Biwa ride, now we are going through a period where you are getting RDO's advice on how to regain power lost from detraining. It's not a big yawn at all and we haven't even gotten to the AWC training yet! Plus, there is the whole saga ahead of you going from 250 watts to breaking the 300 watt barrier.

RDO has been great in all of this. I wish I could come over and mow his lawn or trim his cacti for him when he is out of town and needs a favor.

RDO, it's time to feed the monster that you created again.Oh, I know. And, I know what's coming -- an assault on FT=300W. Now, that's a serious quest and I think Tyson thinks he's already there. Hmmm, we'll see.

Plus, there is the whole saga ahead of you going from 250 watts to breaking the 300 watt barrier.Actually, I have a little exercise for Tyson that I have been holding off until he gets over his crash injuries. I want him to ride a full-up 60min FT ride. It's a long way from 2x20s at 250W to a 1 hr ride at 250W constant. Those last 15-20 minutes drag on as though they were days, not minutes. When I get into the last 15 mins of a 60 min full-power ride, I don't count the minutes, I count the pedal strokes.

RDO has been great in all of this. I wish I could come over and mow his lawn or trim his cacti for him when he is out of town and needs a favor.Well, if you've got any pull with the big guy, how about asking him to drop the temperature about 20 degrees from now to September? I think I need to invent a new type of cycling shoe, with refrigerated soles. Not to mention refrigerated bottles.:D

I didn't predict that your 300W max duration was 1 min. I said I thought your 300W max duration was somewhere between 30 secs and 3 mins. I think it would be more beneficial to do your AWC intervals toward the 3 min duration end of the range. As you move up the scale from ~120%FT, the max duration drops like a stone. I think you would find that you can't do repeats of 60s @ 350W, but then maybe you can. Anyway, I treat the L6 intervals like all others (except L7s), in that I ride them well within my max power for the duration because I'm after volume rather than a once-and-done effort. I'm looking for 15-20 minutes of L6 work in a ride.


Me bad!:o You're right, you didn't predict my 300 max duration was 1 min.
I read your post twice and still misinterpreted it. As a professional proofreader there's no excuse - my apologies.

As we have one reader in Curlew, I suppose we have to continue this thread yet awhile. Has he paid up his subscription btw?:D

Curlew wrote:


Tyson, if it is fun and helpful for you, I hope you will continue the conversation. When you go back through the thread there is a lot of helpful information that you have drawn out from RDO and others. There was the starting out period, peaking for the big climb and the Lake Biwa ride, now we are going through a period where you are getting RDO's advice on how to regain power lost from detraining. It's not a big yawn at all and we haven't even gotten to the AWC training yet! Plus, there is the whole saga ahead of you going from 250 watts to breaking the 300 watt barrier.

LOL Curlew; you make it sound like a thrilling serialized novel. I wish I could share your enthusiasm for breaking the 300 watt barrier. The way I feel at the mo, it seems a long way off despite RD's assumption that he thinks I feel I am there already. Right at this very instant, it seems to have receded into the distance somewhat. This morning just to get the feel off what it's like, I did 2x90secs @ 300w followed by 1x60 secs @ 350 watts. If you haven't already tried them, I can tell you they are bloody hard. Anyway we shall see.

RD wrote:


Actually, I have a little exercise for Tyson that I have been holding off until he gets over his crash injuries. I want him to ride a full-up 60min FT ride. It's a long way from 2x20s at 250W to a 1 hr ride at 250W constant. Those last 15-20 minutes drag on as though they were days, not minutes. When I get into the last 15 mins of a 60 min full-power ride, I don't count the minutes, I count the pedal strokes.


Why on earth would you want me to do that?!?! I know what a drag it is even with the sexiest girl in the gym on the next bike to me. I would go so far as to say the last 10-15 minutes are sheer purgatory.
And what's more I still have my crash injuries, and it looks like it will be 2 or 3 months before they heal.:D

Incidentally RD, my wife is all for visiting LV. I think we will have to take one of those famous Japanese package tours - where's my camera?
However, I'm not ready to ride with you yet, if I ever will be.;)

I wish I could share your enthusiasm for breaking the 300 watt barrier. The way I feel at the mo, it seems a long way off despite RD's assumption that he thinks I feel I am there already. Right at this very instant, it seems to have receded into the distance somewhat. This morning just to get the feel off what it's like, I did 2x90secs @ 300w followed by 1x60 secs @ 350 watts. If you haven't already tried them, I can tell you they are bloody hard. Anyway we shall see.Actually, I think you should do a "clear all memory" operation and forget about your earlier numbers. You need to recalibrate your fitness and derive the same satisfaction from improvements that you had initially. When I detrain for any reason, I don't hesitate to do a 1 hr ride and recalibrate my FT. From that point forward, that is my base and I get as excited about every bump as I did the first time.

Why on earth would you want me to do that?!?! I know what a drag it is even with the sexiest girl in the gym on the next bike to me. I would go so far as to say the last 10-15 minutes are sheer purgatory.
And what's more I still have my crash injuries, and it looks like it will be 2 or 3 months before they heal.:DOne, it's a solid 60 mins at L4. Two, it's great mental discipline. Three, it validates the relationship between your 20 min power and your FT. I don't have the data to back up my theory, but I think many people are overestimating their FT by basing it on their 20min power. FYI, I divide my 20min power by 1.10 to estimate my FT. I have learned over time that with comparable motivation that is the relationship (for me). I think the ratio of 20min to 60min power will increase over time as I become more fit at longer durations, but that is where I am currently. The consequence of an overestimation is that we ride our L4 efforts at higher power than necessary and we end up spending too much time at recovery pace, decreasing the quality ride time. I believe it's counterproductive to overestimate FT. May as well go out there and find out.

Incidentally RD, my wife is all for visiting LV. I think we will have to take one of those famous Japanese package tours - where's my camera? However, I'm not ready to ride with you yet, if I ever will be.;)Cool.:cool: You'll be ready. Hey, I'm working on this document to get you to 300W. Once you get there, you need to find some new hills to flatten.:D

Actually, I think you should do a "clear all memory" operation and forget about your earlier numbers. You need to recalibrate your fitness and derive the same satisfaction from improvements that you had initially. When I detrain for any reason, I don't hesitate to do a 1 hr ride and recalibrate my FT. From that point forward, that is my base and I get as excited about every bump as I did the first time.
.:DFine, but selecting a figure is difficult. It's certainly not 250W or even 240Watts at the mo. Perhaps therein lies the answer - 230Watts. Geez, before long I'll be back at the good old days of 130Watts.:D Ah, my halcyon days!:)

RD wrote:


Hey, I'm working on this document to get you to 300W. Once you get there, you need to find some new hills to flatten :D
Forget the document, that won't get me to 300Watts. Send me some new legs, heart and lungs.;) TYSON

Fine, but selecting a figure is difficult. It's certainly not 250W or even 240Watts at the mo. Perhaps therein lies the answer - 230Watts.That's only because you don't have the document yet. It will give you a surefire way to find your FT with one ride (and without a 60min effort). Granted, it will require three efforts to max duration, but cumulatively less than an hour of riding (with recoveries). More importantly, it will give you max power/duration values for any duration you want.:D

That's only because you don't have the document yet. It will give you a surefire way to find your FT with one ride (and without a 60min effort). Granted, it will require three efforts to max duration, but cumulatively less than an hour of riding (with recoveries). More importantly, it will give you max power/duration values for any duration you want.:DOK, OK I give up - give me, give me, give me the document, I've got mountains to climb!:D

OK, OK I give up - give me, give me, give me the document, I've got mountains to climb!:DWell, you're in luck. It just so happens that I finished the largest part (~128K characters) of the major document I have been working on. I have two smaller parts to write and then I can finish the training document. In the meantime, you'll just have to wing it. I'm sure you'll manage just fine.:D

BTW, too bad you don't have a PM, because one piece I am finishing today is a ride file parser that buckets training time by level based on both power and duration. Nothing else does that. But, then, you don't have a PM. Oh, well.;)

Well, you're in luck. It just so happens that I finished the largest part (~128K characters) of the major document I have been working on. I have two smaller parts to write and then I can finish the training document. In the meantime, you'll just have to wing it. I'm sure you'll manage just fine.:D

BTW, too bad you don't have a PM, because one piece I am finishing today is a ride file parser that buckets training time by level based on both power and duration. Nothing else does that. But, then, you don't have a PM. Oh, well.;)Actually, at the moment I haven't a clue what I'm doing or should be doing.
The weather forecast has changed for tomorrow, so shall be out on the road at 4.30am. That's no prob.
You mentioned that you want me to see how long I can sustain 300Watts, so my plan is to do that on Tuesday in the gym followed by .....?
Then Thursday in the gym ......? I'm confused :confused:

Can't I just go back to doing 2x20 @ 140? Those were happy days!:D

Actually, at the moment I haven't a clue what I'm doing or shoud be doing.I'd go back to what you were doing before you started to taper for the century, just scaled back to reflect your detrained FT. I think if you assume your current FT is ~220W, you will quickly find out if that is too low because the durations will just be too easy. What were you doing, something like 2x/week of 2x20s and 1x/week of L5s and 1x20, plus a long Sunday ride?

Can't I just go back to doing 2x20 @ 140? Those were happy days!:DI know you said this in jest, but I actually like the idea of dropping way back after detraining and doing a gradual buildup. It's a good feeling to finish a set feeling like you could up the wattage quite a bit. Trying to ride at or near your pre-detraining levels is frustrating and discouraging. You got there gradually and you need to get back there gradually.

I know you said this in jest, but I actually like the idea of dropping way back after detraining and doing a gradual buildup. It's a good feeling to finish a set feeling like you could up the wattage quite a bit. Trying to ride at or near your pre-detraining levels is frustrating and discouraging. You got there gradually and you need to get back there gradually.Right, now I'm getting angry (not with you RD) So the program goes like this.

From next week.

WK 1 2x20 @ 200W
Wk 2 2x20 @ 210W
Wk 3 2x20 @ 220W
Wk 4 2x20 @ 230W
Wk 5 2x20 @ 240W
Wk 6 2x20 @ 250W
Wk 7 2x20 @ 260W
Wk 8 2x20 @ 270W
Wk 9 2x20 @ 280W
Wk 10 2x20 @ 290W
Wk 11 The first week in September 2x20 @ 300W or my name is not Richard Gere!:rolleyes:

No matter how good I feel I'm going to adhere to the above. Of course I shall also do my VO2max sessions and the AWC sessions when you say.

Ready for showing my back wheel to guys who did that to me in the 150Km around Lake Biwa ride last October when my FTP was around 120Watts and I weighed 85 plus Kilos. This year in October is going to be a whole new ball game. Especially as I also have go faster pedals,tyres and shoes - red ones!:D

P.S. The above does not precude me from doing 3x20 on a good day.;) TYSON