It's killing me but..........

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Got another week yet before the century RD, however, I shall not be posting again in this thread until June 5th with the ride report. Plan to do 100km plus on Monday, a light spin for half an hour or so @ 200Watts on Thursday, then meditate until Sunday's ride.I guess I got ahead a week. Don't let me stifle you. I think a bunch of us are looking forward to your final preparations for your second main goal.

Just one final question. I see some people advocating hydrating 2 days before a century. Is this possible? I thought one would just pee it all out.I don't know, I've never done it. But, I tend to go through water more as a function of temperature than distance. Unless it's 90+, I don't drink all that much.

PS Haven't had an "awesome" for a long time. I guess my training sessions have become more mundane. Can I have an awesome when I do 1x20 @300Watts?:DYou'll definitely get an "awesome" when you nail your century. As to your 1x20 @ 300W, I'll have to come up with something to top awesome. Then I'll tell you to stay on your side of the Pacific.:D Just kidding. Come over here any time, we have some great rides. I'm planning a whole series for my club right now. These are take-your-breath-away-beautiful rides, and then there's this small matter of 5-10K feet of climbing.

Quite a thread.

Tyson, I'm impressed by your progress and I'm looking forward to your ride report. RD, I have a few questions about how to do this without power capability.

I have the Friel book and have measured my LTHR at 157. I know LTHR is an *estimate* and hence not as reliable as using power.

I'm 45, 5' 11', weigh 171 and have lost just under 30 lbs since I started riding for fitness a couple years ago. I need to get to 150 to 155 as a target weight. I've been pressing hard on every ride with enough recovery in between.

I have 10 to 12 hours a week to ride and train with the weekends being my best time for longer rides. I can do about 1.5 hours after work on the weekdays 3 times a week at most.

My goals are to not get dropped on faster group rides and do the Hotter than Hell 100 in august. My longest ride to date was 50 miles in brutal Texas wind and rolling hills with a fast group. It was also my fastest ride ever with an average of almost 17 mph for about 37 miles until I totally cracked and had to limp home. The limiting factor on that ride was my legs, not my lungs.

On most rides I start out with a warmup and end up hammering until I am at around 165 hr. I recover for a few minutes and do it again. This goes for the whole ride. Sometimes the intervals are 3 minutes or so and sometimes I stretch them out for maybe 10 minutes. Admittedly, I'm not being very structured in my approach. That's one of the reasons I'm writing this. I don't want to race, I can't train 20 hours a week. But, I know I need to be more systematic to keep making progress.

I usually take a day off to recover. I've observed my max HR on the bike to be 174. This is almost exactly in line with the Friel zones.

I'm making progress but I want to make more! :)

To do the Friel test I put my bike on a trainer with constant resistance. I used gears to do a minute each at 15, 16, 17, etc... mph until I had to stop. I plotted that on a graph and used that plus observation of VT to estimate LTHR. I know power is more accurate but can't swing the money at this point.

So my question is: can you give some quidelines for doing the 2x20 on a trainer? Would I start out at an estimate of my 1hr power and just hammer? Also, any suggestions about a more systematic approach would be great.

I'm sure a lot of people following this thread and Tyson's impressive progress who don't have power capabilities would love to hear more about this angle of the training saga.

According to Friel, 15mph is about 100 watts and each mph above that increases 20 watts (on the trainer).

Sorry to write a book, but I know you guys like details.

So my question is: can you give some quidelines for doing the 2x20 on a trainer? Would I start out at an estimate of my 1hr power and just hammer? Also, any suggestions about a more systematic approach would be great.Knowing wattage really does nothing more than let you compare yourself to others. You can achieve the same results using some other metric provided that measure lets you do the same calculations in the same scenario. Sounds cryptic?

RD gave me a really cool idea. All you need is a computer that reads off the rear wheel. Then use speed as a guage on a trainer. So to do find your 20 min effort you find your max speed for anything around 20 mins. So if you can sustain 21mph for 21 mins. Do your 2x20's at about 90% of that speed. Thats it. There's nothing more to it. You will quickly see that 21mph will feel really easy and you need to increase power. So on and so forth.

You could also find your speeds at different zones like 5min speed, 30sec speed and so on. This will give you your curve. The only variable here is that fuild trainers are sometimes not linear in their speed/power curve.

Ps: I am using a kurt kinetic computer that gives you a power estimate by reading from the real wheel while on a kurt kinetic trainer. But I was using a cheap walmart computer before that.

So to do find your 20 min effort you find your max speed for anything around 20 mins. So if you can sustain 21mph for 21 mins. Do your 2x20's at about 90% of that speed. Thats itSo, I should just take a guess to start with a speed I think I can maintain for 20 min and do the test. I guess I should use the Avg Speed over the test as my "power" for that test and then take 90% as my 2x20 power?

That makes some sense. Thanks for the info.

So, I should just take a guess to start with a speed I think I can maintain for 20 min and do the test. I guess I should use the Avg Speed over the test as my "power" for that test and then take 90% as my 2x20 power?

That makes some sense. Thanks for the info.Well the time you can hold a certain power for a duration is MP(max power) for that duration. So if you can hold 200W for 21mins, 200W is you MP for 21 min. And yes, you use the Avg speed or power for that duration.
And your FT is around 95%of your 20min power.

However, its not always easy to do 20mins at 20MP. And 2 of those are even more difficult, so thats why its ok to do them at 90% of 20min MP. The other thing RD feels(learnt this from RD too) is that its much better to spend more mins/week on lower L4(this is where 20min power is) than to spend less time and work on upper L4.

But, functional threshold capacity is the one that usually needs the most work, takes the most time and usually is the least work unexperienced people do. People spend way too much time doing super high intensity work.

The other thing RD feels(learnt this from RD too) is that its much better to spend more mins/week on lower L4(this is where 20min power is) than to spend less time and work on upper L4.

But, functional threshold capacity is the one that usually needs the most work, takes the most time and usually is the least work unexperienced people do. People spend way too much time doing super high intensity work.
Interesting that NS. I think you're right, somewhere in all the advice given by RD, he does advocate the above. Perhaps, in an attempt to reach 300Watts ASAP, I overlooked that fact.

Anyway this week on Tues and Thurs I plan to spin lightly for 1 hour each day @ 200W in readiness for Sunday's century.


Talking about the century, suddenly I noticed on Yahoo weather, they have changed the forecast from cloudy to rain Sat, Sun, Mon.
If that is the case then they can stuff the century up where it hurts.
I went out yesterday and got caught in the mountains in a torrential downpour. I can tell you it was scary and I was frozen stiff. The downhills (mountains) were terryfying. It was early in the morning and there was only me and the occasional car.
Setting off in the rain with 600 riders, for me anyway is a definite no no. Call me a scissy, but I'm not risking my neck to prove I'm machoman.
There will be other rides.
Also fell over yesterday locked into the pedals and couldn't get the right foot out without struggling to take off the shoe. All in the middle of the road.:o

Since starting to write this post, they have changed Sat to Sunshine, maybe there's still hope as there are 5 days to go!:)

Also fell over yesterday locked into the pedals and couldn't get the right foot out without struggling to take off the shoe. All in the middle of the road.:o Since starting to write this post, they have changed Sat to Sunshine, maybe there's still hope as there are 5 days to go!:)Sorry to hear about your fall. Good to know you survived. :D Be careful man.
I hurt my back the week before and no more riding for me for another week. :( :( :( :( I am missing my 2x20's. God knows where Ill end up when I get back. I am hoping to be set back not more than a week.
300W FT is really good dude. If and when you reach that goal you should really celebrate it. There arent many people in the 300W club. And if you are real lightweight while in the 300W club you get to be called elite. :)

Sorry to hear about your fall. Good to know you survived. :D Be careful man.
I hurt my back the week before and no more riding for me for another week. :( :( :( :( I am missing my 2x20's. God knows where Ill end up when I get back. I am hoping to be set back not more than a week.
300W FT is really good dude. If and when you reach that goal you should really celebrate it. There arent many people in the 300W club. And if you are real lightweight while in the 300W club you get to be called elite. :)Sorry to hear about your injury NS, you'll probably come back stronger than ever - not too strong I hope.;)
As you know I'm new to this power building game, and wasn't aware of 300Watts being anything special. Doing 300W for 2 mins the other day, I realise how hard it is, but I hope to build on that 2 mins.

After the century and after 3 days rest (am a bit lazy:) ) my aim is to take the aerobike in the gym to its max of 350Watts and try and hold it for at least 30secs. There's no particular reason for doing this other than to see what it feels like. Who knows, perhaps I'll bonk after 5 secs, or worse still - won't be able to even turn the pedals. Will keep you posted.:D

Tyson,

If you have a minute, could you tell me more about next weekend's ride to Lake Biwa? What elevation do you start at? What are the elevations of the passes? Do you ride all of the way around the lake? Will you ride by yourself, with friends in a prearranged group or do groups just self-assemble on the ride? What will be the hardest part of the ride? What is it about this ride that you are looking forward to the most?

Apparently, Basho, Japan's venerable Haiku poet, lived for awhile on the south shore of Lake Biwa and is buried there. Looking at pictures of Lake Biwa and reading about Basho's attachment to that part of Japan, I too get filled with "Haiku Spirit." What an incredible place to ride through Tyson.

Here are a couple of Basho's Haiku's that refer to the Lake Biwa country..

From every direction
cherry blossom petals blow
into Lake Biwa

Long conversations
beside blooming irises –
joys of life on the road


Have a great ride Tyson! Whlle you are climbing to Lake Biwa, I will be doing an out and back 40KTT. These are usually hour long sufferfests but there will be a smile on my face from time to time as images of you riding through Basho country come to my mind.

Tyson,

If you have a minute, could you tell me more about next weekend's ride to Lake Biwa? What elevation do you start at? What are the elevations of the passes? Do you ride all of the way around the lake? Will you ride by yourself, with friends in a prearranged group or do groups just self-assemble on the ride? What will be the hardest part of the ride? What is it about this ride that you are looking forward to the most?

Apparently, Basho, Japan's venerable Haiku poet, lived for awhile on the south shore of Lake Biwa and is buried there. Looking at pictures of Lake Biwa and reading about Basho's attachment to that part of Japan, I too get filled with "Haiku Spirit." What an incredible place to ride through Tyson.

Here are a couple of Basho's Haiku's that refer to the Lake Biwa country..

From every direction
cherry blossom petals blow
into Lake Biwa

Long conversations
beside blooming irises –
joys of life on the road


Have a great ride Tyson! Whlle you are climbing to Lake Biwa, I will be doing an out and back 40KTT. These are usually hour long sufferfests but there will be a smile on my face from time to time as images of you riding through Basho country come to my mind.Hi there again Curlew. Yesterday (Sunday) I had a call from the organizers of this annual event. Why - well in my address they could read my Japanese, but they couldn't read 1D (which is the number of my apartment):rolleyes:
I think I've been in Japan too long.:)
Anyway, they sent out the details to me yesterday and I should get them tomorrow. So I will let you know. One thing I can answer is, there are 600 riders from all over taking part, but there are 2 courses - 160km (100miles)
and for the less masochistic, a 70km course.

Oh, the course skirts along the top of Lake Biwa, then back up into the mountains, then down to the Japan inland sea, and finally back up to the ski resort where we started from.

And of course you'll let us know the result of your TT. Have a good one mate.;)

Btw

Long conversations
beside blooming irises –
joys of life on the road (on my handmade Claud Butler)


What cycling club did Basho belong to I wonder?:D

Yippee! They've changed the weather forecast again for Sunday's century.

In the morning when we set off it should be a pleasant 15/16 degrees C, rising to 26C in the afternoon. All fingers Xed now.

Did an easy session in the gym today @ 200Watts (cadence 90plus) for 1 hour, or at least I think it was 1 hour. At 53 mins there was a smell of electrics burning and the display disappeared soon after. Kept going for another 4 songs on the iPod shuffle.
I'm sure they're going to ban me soon for sweating into their electrics.

Luckily the display came back on after 15 mins or so.:D

Plan to do nothing now until Sunday. That's 4 days rest. Too much???

Did an easy session in the gym today @ 200Watts (cadence 90plus) for 1 hourDude you are killing me!!! When I hear things like these I feel like riding and I cannot(for atleast 3-4 days now). 200W easy session.... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Plan to do nothing now until Sunday. That's 4 days rest. Too much???Hi There Tyson,

Sorry for the absence. I was attending my youngest son's graduation from high school in Massachusetts. It was awesome. The only thing that could have made it better would have been a couple of bike rides on those great hills of MA, my old stompin' grounds. But, this weekend was all about him, so no bike. How is it that I have failed to get even one of my 5 kids into cycling? Ice hockey, lacrosse, soccer, running, swimming & figure skating, but no cyclists. Bummer!

As to how much rest, I think this varies a lot from individual to individual. Personally, I would do a fairly normal week until ~3 days before the event, then an easy hour or two on Friday and take Saturday completely off the bike. But, that's me. Go back and look at your best road rides of the last couple of months. How many days off the bike did you have before the ride? One? Two? Probably not four.

Anyway, have a great ride Sunday. You're ready!:D

Dude you are killing me!!! When I hear things like these I feel like riding and I cannot(for atleast 3-4 days now). 200W easy session.... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:No,no NS, this thread is entitled "It's killing me"" not killing you. You're OK, it's me RD is trying to annihilate.:D

RD your son's graduation is more important than any bike ride - it comes around only once, you can ride the bike anytime. Thanks for your well wishes. From the info I received today (not much Curlew) it looks like being an easy start with a 1km downhill from the ski resort. In fact the mountain road is so narrow, we are being set of 20 people at a time with no overtaking permitted for the 1st 7km. I hope the guy at the front isn't doing 10kmh!:rolleyes:
A rear light is a requirement as there are many dark tunnels on the way to lake Biwa. And that's about all I know about the course, except looking at the map it seems like we traverse 5 mountain passes.

looking at the map it seems like we traverse 5 mountain passes.BTW, if a fast time is your goal, your best power management strategy is to ride at higher power uphill and upwind. Basically, add power when bike speed is slow (e.g., <15mph) and back off when bike speed is fast (e.g., >20mph). This is because you get almost a 90% payoff in bike speed % increase when bike speed is slow and you get about a 10% payoff in bike speed % increase when bike speed is fast. For example, let's say your sustainable power for the century is 200W. If you ride uphill at 220W (+10%), you will gain ~8% increase in bike speed, whereas if you ride downhill at 220W you will gain only ~2% increase in bike speed. Obviously, it's a sliding scale continuum and I am grossly simplifying the decision criterion (<15mph >20mph), but it should work for you because it depends on one piece of data readily available (speed).

BTW, if a fast time is your goal, your best power management strategy is to ride at higher power uphill and upwind. Basically, add power when bike speed is slow (e.g., <15mph) and back off when bike speed is fast (e.g., >20mph). This is because you get almost a 90% payoff in bike speed % increase when bike speed is slow and you get about a 10% payoff in bike speed % increase when bike speed is fast. For example, let's say your sustainable power for the century is 200W. If you ride uphill at 220W (+10%), you will gain ~8% increase in bike speed, whereas if you ride downhill at 220W you will gain only ~2% increase in bike speed. Obviously, it's a sliding scale continuum and I am grossly simplifying the decision criterion (<15mph >20mph), but it should work for you because it depends on one piece of data readily available (speed).
RD man. I HAVE to say this. Its of extremely great value to this forum to have people like you who can be articulate and technical at the same time. I have been on many forums and have discussions with people on a daily basis on my job(and these are mostly highly technical people with PHDs) but rarely do I find a combination of good communication skills and technical knowhow at the same time.

RD man. I HAVE to say this. Its of extremely great value to this forum to have people like you who can be articulate and technical at the same time. I have been on many forums and have discussions with people on a daily basis on my job(and these are mostly highly technical people with PHDs) but rarely do I find a combination of good communication skills and technical knowhow at the same time.Thanks, NS. And, no, you can't have my PT SL.:D

BTW, if a fast time is your goal, your best power management strategy is to ride at higher power uphill and upwind. Basically, add power when bike speed is slow (e.g., <15mph) and back off when bike speed is fast (e.g., >20mph). This is because you get almost a 90% payoff in bike speed % increase when bike speed is slow and you get about a 10% payoff in bike speed % increase when bike speed is fast. For example, let's say your sustainable power for the century is 200W. If you ride uphill at 220W (+10%), you will gain ~8% increase in bike speed, whereas if you ride downhill at 220W you will gain only ~2% increase in bike speed. Obviously, it's a sliding scale continuum and I am grossly simplifying the decision criterion (<15mph >20mph), but it should work for you because it depends on one piece of data readily available (speed).
Thanks RD for that final piece of useful advice. Whether or not I'm able to put it into practice or not, is another matter. You know, the fog of war etc.:)

Have decided other than cycling to the supermarket, I'm resting for 4 days to let a bit of chafing in the groin heal completely. Something small like that can spoil a ride for you at times.

I don't think I told you, my cycling partner is entered for this ride too. As we are travelling up together, I said bring your bike over on Saturday to make sure I can get 2 bikes in the car. To which he replied that he couldn't leave his bike with me as I might sabotage it in order to finish ahead of him.:)

I will keep you posted as to who crosses the line first. 31 versus 63 shouldn't really be a contest.;)

31 versus 63 shouldn't really be a contest.;)But, it's not 31 vs. 63. It's ? vs. 250W. Who knows?

But, it's not 31 vs. 63. It's ? vs. 250W. Who knows?
That was the reason for the knowing wink.:)

Having said that, there is an expression "young legs".