It's killing me but..........

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Talking about tyres, I have been wondering why I couldn't get anywhere near the same downhill speed with my new bike having the same gears as the old one. Suddenly it clicked tonight - maybe it's the tyres!

Checked them out and found they are IRC tyres. Unfortunately they are not listed in the link you gave me RD. Anyone know what the rolling resistance is like for IRC tyres? I assume there's more than 1 type.

Tyson

Talking about tyres, I have been wondering why I couldn't get anywhere near the same downhill speed with my new bike having the same gears as the old one. Suddenly it clicked tonight - maybe it's the tyres!Is your position the same? Above 30mph, I would probably rank the issues that can result in increased speed as follows: position on bike, wheels, tires, frame, helmet. Believe it or not, even tire width has a measurable effect on speed >30mph!

Hi Tyson,

I am just now paying closer attention to something you recently said:

Now to change the subject; under extreme pressure from RapDaddyo through PMs I can reveal that on today's long ride I achieved my first objective as stated right at the beginning of this thread. Apologies for not wanting to elaborate on that, but it's over and done and I now want to concentrate on upping my power ready for June 4 Century and beyond.

Hmmmm, when I read this I started wondering which of the goals you are talking about here so I started scrolling through the previous posts on this thread.

On February 7 2006 you wrote:

Watch this space, I'm fired up and determined to do 2x20 @200W by this summer. If it doesn't kill me that is! Bloody hell I will be 64 this summer - should be thinking about getting my bus pass not cycling up mountains. Now where's that number for Mrs. Nicklebottom's jam making class.

But you reached this goal back on March 20 because you wrote:

Started off at 200W and it felt 10 times better than yesterday, so instead of 2 x20 @200W did 1x30 @ 200W plus 1x10 @200W at a cadence of around 70, and still had something left in the tank! Can't explain that.

Then I start thinking that all of this conversation about training and watts wasn't just about cranking out more watts on a trainer. There was another goal! There was a story!

On a Janary 16 post to the thread "Is it time I retired?" Your wrote:

But already I feel a new inspiration and I hope it won't be too long before it is me who is waiting at the top of the hills for my young cycling buddy.

And then on March 7th you said:

I'm also avoiding my young riding partner as long as I can. Because when I take him, I want it to be decisive and sadistically soul destroying. He actually sometimes goes out with a group of young Japanese, and whereas he used to be the best climber apparently he's now 2nd best. He's invited me to join them sometime; of course he will then be 3rd best!

An on April 8th you said:

Well as you've probably read, I'm doing a 160km mountainous course in June, so weight is one of the criteria. And more importantly, the reason for consulting these forums in the first place, was to beat my lighter (half my age) cycling companion on the hills. He has difficulty staying with me on the flat.

I thought this showdown was going to be on the climbs to Lake Biwa on June 4th! The showdown has already happened hasn't it??? Oh my gosh, I feel like I missed a big event that I have been looking forward to for a long time. And this is all you are going to tell us????

I can reveal that on today's long ride I achieved my first objective as stated right at the beginning of this thread. Apologies for not wanting to elaborate on that…

Tyson, if I could wave a magic wand Rapdaddyo would be in the OLN TV helicopter providing the commentary as OLN does a world-wide TV broadcast of you and your younger climbing partner approaching and then heading up showdown hill. I can see parts of this clearly. Dr. Morbius, Whoawhoa, Palewin, Frenchyge, Kmavm, WarrenG, Fergie, Jeff828, Pureshot78, Bike-206, A5hi5m, Wherbob, Rapdaddyo, and Netscriber are all pedaling away on their trainers in front of their TV's while watching this special segment of Cyclism Sunday that is being broadcast from Japan. Come on Tyson, I don't have a magic wand so you please tell us what happened!!!!

Tyson, if I could wave a magic wand Rapdaddyo would be in the OLN TV helicopter providing the commentary as OLN does a world-wide TV broadcast of you and your younger climbing partner approaching and then heading up showdown hill.How'd you know? The tape is so good it's going to be offered on pay-per-view. Better than "The Thrilla in Manila." :D

There's always one CIA spook posting in a forum!:confused:

After reading the entire Tyre RR thread, the Michelin Pro 2 race is in the lead at the mo. Still have time to decide though.:)

After reading the entire Tyre RR thread, the Michelin Pro 2 race is in the lead at the mo. Still have time to decide though.:)Good choice. Some complain that it's a little "squishy" in the corners (crits), but that's not your problem. Here's a discussion of that specific tyre http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,3253,s1-15146-P,00.html?category_id=361.

Good choice. Some complain that it's a little "squishy" in the corners (crits), but that's not your problem. Here's a discussion of that specific tyre http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,3253,s1-15146-P,00.html?category_id=361.
Thanks RD, I read that from the above link given in the other thread. Very informative.

I really am indebted to you and RD for creating a conversation that, with other threads on Cycling Forums, helped me bring structure to what previosly had been training organized around "hours on the bike". I will post some figures in the next day or so.I second this. Although not being a man of man of many words, Id still like to thank RD and Tyson.
And Tyson, quit calling yourself an old fart. People older than me have beat me on the bike and are most of the times wiser than me. So there is no such thing as an old fart. There are just farts and they have been farts since they were younger.

My numbers...
I have been doing 2x20s relegiously for 2-3 weeks now. The first week was not so structured.
This week 2x20's @ 150W. Weight still 111lbs.
Today I did 3x20's outside.

And keep it up Tyson. I am eagerly waiting for the day when you are 140lbs and 350W FTP and you tell everyone about the local race you won. :)

Hey Tyson, how do you know your old cycling buddy is not on this forum following your every move? I hope he doesnt call you Tyson in real life. :D

Hey Tyson, how do you know your old cycling buddy is not on this forum following your every move? I hope he doesnt call you Tyson in real life. :D
Just let's say I know.;) And 2x20 @ 150W is not to be sneezed at - I know because I was there not so very long ago. Congrats

And today another record tumbles.

1x20 @ 250W
1x10 @ 250W and with no rest 1x7 @ 240W

Cadence started to drop markedly so called it quits at 17 mins of the 2nd interval.

So RD where does this leave me for the VO2MAX intervals on Tuesday?

Don't tell me 270W. I think I told you my computer is going in for repair after this post for a month or two. I didn't? Me bad!:D

1x20 @ 250W
1x10 @ 250W and with no rest 1x7 @ 240W
Cadence started to drop markedly so called it quits at 17 mins of the 2nd interval.
So RD where does this leave me for the VO2MAX intervals on Tuesday?Well, I'd say it's at least 270W, maybe as high as 290W. If you can recall your perceived exertion after 5 mins of your first VO2MAX intervals, that's what the efforts should produce. Not total exhaustion, but it should require your full concentration to maintain power and a smooth and fluid pedaling stroke. The reason it could be as high as 290W is that from the above intervals your FT appears to be ~240W. If you do your VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT, that's 288W. Enjoy!:D

Well, I'd say it's at least 270W, maybe as high as 290W. If you can recall your perceived exertion after 5 mins of your first VO2MAX intervals, that's what the efforts should produce. Not total exhaustion, but it should require your full concentration to maintain power and a smooth and fluid pedaling stroke. The reason it could be as high as 290W is that from the above intervals your FT appears to be ~240W. If you do your VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT, that's 288W. Enjoy!:D
Hold on a minute RD!:( A week ago it was 260W, it's impossible to make such progress in a week. 290Watts?!?! :eek: don't think I could even move the pedals around at that Wattage.:) And also if you remember, I only managed to do 250W intervals. I know I was tired but still....... Geez 290W - I'll burst a blood vessel or rupture the skin covering my calves.:D

Sorry to keep asking you this RD, but what is the target for the 15th inst?:rolleyes:

Hold on a minute RD!:( A week ago it was 260W, it's impossible to make such progress in a week. 290Watts?!?! :eek: don't think I could even move the pedals around at that Wattage.:) I'd try 275W for the first one. See how it feels after 5 mins. You can up it later if it's too easy.

Sorry to keep asking you this RD, but what is the target for the 15th inst?:rolleyes:Same as I said before, >100W.:D Forget about targets. Just worry about the task at hand -- consistency and riding your workouts at the right wattage. That's what got you here. Why fix a good wheel?:D

Tyson,

Here are the numbers I promised to post. I'm hoping that paying these "dues" might encourage you to produce a fuller account of your ride on "showdown hill". Here's the context for the numbers that follow.

I am currently 51 years old and weigh 162 lbs. In July 2005 I was resting overuse injuries that had accumulated from training for the half marathon I run each May. I thought getting back on the bike I rode in high school might be a good way of cross training while I waited for things to heal up. I had been a competitive racer at the Junior level in the 1970's but the bike racing community wasn't well established in the college towns where I went to school. So, like many of the friends that I rode with in high school, during my college years I drifted into recreational running as the way to stay in shape as an adult.

While giving those overuse injuries a rest last summer I went on my first group ride in 30 years. Wow, I realized how much I had missed by drifting away from riding…the colors, the speed, the sounds of tires surging against the pavement, the smooth flow of motion, the closeness. With that overuse injury I thought last summer would go down in my memory as the summer I finally had to give up running. Now that summer stands out and will be remembered as the summer I found my way back to my bike.

So here is where I was at the end of last summer. On 9/25/05 I did a competitive 40K TT with an average speed of 20.4 mph. When I go to the website (http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm) and plug in my 162 lb weight and 69 inch height I get an estimate Average Watts = 186

So, I continued to ride in October, November and December 2005, but your conversations in January 2006 with Rapdaddyo and others pushed me to bring more structure to my training. So about when you started training in January 2006 for "showdown hill", I started doing intervals down in the basement on a Kurt Kinetic trainer with a cyclocomputer that estimates watts from a wheel revolution vs resistance curve. My family thought I was nuts.

What immediately follows are the 2 X 30 intervals that I did between January 25 2006 and March 25 2006 indoors on the trainer. I try to maintain a pace that is between 5% below and 5% above my FT determined by a 1 hour TT on the trainer. During this time period I also did 2 X 20's and 6 X 5's. On most weeks I got between 1.5 and 2.5 hours of L4 in on the trainer. I rode outside on warmer days and spent time on rollers. On most weeks I got 6-8 hours in on the bike during this time period but there were significant periods where I got sick and was off the bike for at least a couple of 7 day stretches.

January 25
1st 30 : Ave Watts = 211 Ave HR = 140
2nd 30 : Ave Watts = 206 Ave HR = 139

March 6th
1st 30 : Ave Watts = 240 Ave HR = 140
2nd 30 : Ave Watts = 230 Ave HR = 138

March 15th
1st 30: Ave Watts = 238 Ave HR = 141
2nd 30: Ave Watts = 233 Ave HR = 141

March 18
1 Hour Critical Power Test Average Watts = 248 Ave HR = 151

March 25
1st 30: Ave Watts = 259 Ave HR = 146
2nd 30: Ave Watts = 259 Ave HR = 153

So the apparent change from January 25, 2006 (209 Watts) – March 25 2006 (259 Watts) is about 12%. I'm just not sure about this and I just don't think all of this increase is real. I had to switch entire rear wheels to get the gears I needed as I got stronger. I am using the steel framed bike that I road in high school on my trainer so I went back and forth during this time period on the trainer from a rear wheel with a 6 speed freewheel to a wheel that had a 5 speed freewheel. For spacing issues I couldn't just swap freewheels. I always did spindown tests before I started to try to make sure that resistance was comparable from session to session. Thanks whoawhoa for providing pointers on how to do this. Still, what I take from this is I got better. Really better, but until I have a powermeter that would reliably quantify my gains I feel awkward characterizing those gains numerically. I just don't trust the numbers. I think its been great that you have posted your watts. You produced your results in a more controlled way than I did. So my lack of posting wasn't from being secretive.

Now, starting April 5 all of my 30 min intervals are done outside. There is a 1.1 mile relatively flat loop in a park near my house. I try to maintain a pace that is between 5% below and 5% above my FT but I haven't determined my 1 hour FT outdoors yet, so I am probably basing my pacing on heart rate and perceived effort until I can get a 40K TT in on May 14th. To get my watt estimates, I take my average speeds then go to the website (http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm) and enter average speed with the assumptions below to get watts.

Bike Position: Hands on Drops
Assumptions: Riders Height = 69 inches
Riders Weight = 162 lbs
Bicycle Weight = 22.5 lbs
Air Temperature = 68F
Height Above Sea Level = 820 feet
Slope of Road = 0 (circular course, relatively flat)
Wind Speed = 0 (not sure how to handle this)
Pedaling Cadence = 90

April 5
1st 30: Ave Watts = 215 HR Ave HR = 138 Ave Speed = (21.6 mph)
2nd 30: Ave Watts = 205 HR Ave HR = 142 Ave Speed = (21.2 mph)

April 7

1st 30: Ave Watts = 215 Ave HR = 138 Ave Speed = (21.6 mph)
2nd 30: Ave Watts = 196 Ave HR = 142 Ave Speed = (20.8 mph)

April 11
1st 30: Ave Watts = 220 Ave HR = 138 Ave Speed = (21.8 mph)
2nd 30: Ave Watts = 205 Ave HR = 142 Ave Speed = (21.2 mph)

April 17
1st 30: Ave Watts = 220 Ave HR 138 Ave Speed = (21.8 mph)
2nd 30: Ave Watts = 210 Ave HR 142 Ave Speed = (21.4 mph)


So, my 30 min interval times outside are faster than my 40K TT speeds last fall. In a week I will do another 40KTT for a fall 05 -spring 06 comparison. I think my outdoor watts recently are lower than my indoor watts over the winter because I am not estimating them the same way. Also, I got into a bad habit indoors on the trainer. I didn't ride in an aero position so I think I am paying the price now of having to increase my power while riding in the more aero position that I didn't train in all winter.

My "showdown hill" has been the CAT 5 races that I entered this spring. I got field finishes in 2 races and was thrilled to find that I wasn't just hanging on. A third race revealed my greatest weakness. On looping circuit courses where you face the same pack splitting hill about every 2 minutes and the larger riders that suffered on the way up whip the speeds up on the downside, I see my whole book of matches used up in about the first 15 minutes of a 50 minute race. But, at this time of the year, the summer stretches endlessly ahead of us. So there is time and with the help you guys have given me I am hopeful that I can improve from here!!

My "showdown hill" has been the CAT 5 races that I entered this spring. I got field finishes in 2 races and was thrilled to find that I wasn't just hanging on. A third race revealed my greatest weakness. On looping circuit courses where you face the same pack splitting hill about every 2 minutes and the larger riders that suffered on the way up whip the speeds up on the downside, I see my whole book of matches used up in about the first 15 minutes of a 50 minute race. But, at this time of the year, the summer stretches endlessly ahead of us. So there is time and with the help you guys have given me I am hopeful that I can improve from here!!Cool.:cool: You'll increase your matchbook with 120+%FT intervals, in the 2-4min duration range. Anaerobic work capacity (AWC) can be increased substantially with focused efforts, and depending on how well trained it was already.:D

Well young Curlew, that's a pretty comprehensive report.:)

Isn't there a gym near you with a trainer where you can get a comparison with the figures you quote?
Mind you, I doubt very much whether I coud do a 40km TT at 20.4mph average. although RD will probably say you can.LOL
Also I see you do mainly 30 minute intervals which is quite impressive; for the most part I do 20 minute intervals - maybe it's time I upped it.

Anyway Curlew you've inspired me to keep the pressure on. I can't have young whippersnappers like you licking at my heels!:D


RD wrote:

I'd try 275W for the first one. See how it feels after 5 mins. You can up it later if it's too easy.
Or down it if it's too hard.;)

Now, who was it who suggested a target of 200W by the 15th of May?
I seem to have forgotten his name.:rolleyes:

Just to annoy you - my target was 2x20 @ 250W in time for June the 4th.
Well, that's changed now to 2x20 @ 260W :p

Btw, you mentioned tapering in the final week before the Century.

I thought of doing a longish ride the Sunday before (120/130km)

Wed: 1x30 @ whatever Wattage I can do at the time. Followed by 1x30 @ 200W.

Then sleep until Sunday!:D

Now, who was it who suggested a target of 200W by the 15th of May? I seem to have forgotten his name.:rolleyes:

Just to annoy you - my target was 2x20 @ 250W in time for June the 4th.
Well, that's changed now to 2x20 @ 260W :pAt this point, what is beginning to matter more is your 5-6 hour power (which is probably somewhere between 200-225W) and your 5min power (for short climbs). But, life goes on after June 4, so continuing with your 2x20s at increasing power is a good idea.

I thought of doing a longish ride the Sunday before (120/130km)
Wed: 1x30 @ whatever Wattage I can do at the time. Followed by 1x30 @ 200W.
Then sleep until Sunday!:DThat'll work. It's really about total stress of the week before and the week of your long ride. I know how much you have fallen in love with TSS at this point. I'll work up a TSS estimate of your long ride week and get back to you.

At this point, what is beginning to matter more is your 5-6 hour power (which is probably somewhere between 200-225W) and your 5min power (for short climbs). .
This gave me a good laugh; it seems like only yesterday you were saying
"now do 2x20 @ 130W" !!!:)

Seriously though, the above brought home to me just how long I'm going to be out there. According to people I've spoken to, the course is no pushover climbing through all those mountain passes. I want to get to the finish ASAP.
So to take as little time as poss, I'm going to have to do some serious drafting to bump the average up to around 25kmph plus.

Tyson

Incidentally, do the VO2X intervals at a high wattage make the 20min intervals seem easier for a given wattage? At the moment I feel they do, although that is not the reason for doing them I know.

This gave me a good laugh; it seems like only yesterday you were saying "now do 2x20 @ 130W" !!!:) Interesting how this whole training thing works, isn't it? Structured training is about structured adaptations. You have been stressing your body is very specific ways and your body has adapted to the stress.

Seriously though, the above brought home to me just how long I'm going to be out there. According to people I've spoken to, the course is no pushover climbing through all those mountain passes. I want to get to the finish ASAP. So to take as little time as poss, I'm going to have to do some serious drafting to bump the average up to around 25kmph plus.If your goal is shortest elapsed time, two things will help. First, drafting on the flat and downhill segments is huge and will reduce the power required at that speed by ~30%. Second, climbing at above your sustainable power. Climbs are where the physics/physiology relationship argues for more power. So, let's say you draft on the flats and downhill at 175-200W, which is equivalent to 250-285W. Then, you will have some reserve power for the climbs. So, let's say you climb at close to your FT (240-250W). That would be a very efficient use of your sustainable power for the duration of the event (~80-85%FT).

Incidentally, do the VO2X intervals at a high wattage make the 20min intervals seem easier for a given wattage? At the moment I feel they do, although that is not the reason for doing them I know.Yes, they have both a psychological and a physiological effect. The psychological effect is that after doing them for awhile you learn to relax at that power whereas initially you probably got all nervous and panicky at that power. The physiological effect they are having is that they are increasing your VO2MAX, which is one of the two parts that determine your sustainable power (FT for short). Your 2x20s determine how much of that potential you can actually use. IOW, you can have a high VO2MAX and still have a relatively low FT. Some athletes (e.g., Andy Coggan) have an incredibly high ratio of FT to VO2MAX (power).

Yes, they have both a psychological and a physiological effect. The psychological effect is that after doing them for awhile you learn to relax at that power whereas initially you probably got all nervous and panicky at that power. The physiological effect they are having is that they are increasing your VO2MAX, which is one of the two parts that determine your sustainable power (FT for short). Your 2x20s determine how much of that potential you can actually use. IOW, you can have a high VO2MAX and still have a relatively low FT. Some athletes (e.g., Andy Coggan) have an incredibly high ratio of FT to VO2MAX (power).
Interesting that. My 2x20s power and VO2MAX seem to be running pretty close to each other, or at least they were. Tomorrow will tell, on Sunday my 2x20s were nigh on 250W, the same as the VO2MAX power only a few days before.
Theoretically as you say, I should be able to do at least 20Watts if not more, over and above 250W.