It's killing me but..........

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So true! Today was hard - bloody hard!! I think I have overtrained this week. I should have had yesterday off after Monday's effort.
Anyway, right from the start I realized 260W was going to be too hard, so dropped to 250W. Having said that, I'd done one & half minutes off the second interval before I realized I was doing 260W:)
Still, I managed to do the 4x5 @250W - just! After 10 mins @ 100 W started the 1x20 @ 210W - alas the tank was empty.:(This is one of smartest workouts you have ridden. Very wise to realize you weren't fully recovered from that tough ride a couple of days ago and cut the high-intensity work short. Very, very wise.

I've now got 2 complete days off before Sunday's ride and I shall relish them. Next Monday is a day off, so we will see what happens on Tuesday to the 4x5　@ 260W.I think you'll see a big difference when you're reasonably fresh. I think the hills on Sunday will seem flatter than ever. BTW, I'm guessing 250W may be the right number anyway.

Might even treat myself to a donut tomorrow.:DUgh!:( Doesn't a fresh fruit smoothie sound good? ;)

This is one of smartest workouts you have ridden. Very wise to realize you weren't fully recovered from that tough ride a couple of days ago and cut the high-intensity work short. Very, very wise.

I think you'll see a big difference when you're reasonably fresh. I think the hills on Sunday will seem flatter than ever. BTW, I'm guessing 250W may be the right number anyway.

Ugh!:( Doesn't a fresh fruit smoothie sound good? ;)
What's a smoothie?:( Never seen one in England and we don't have them in Japan. Please send me one.;)

250W -- No! No! 260W next week.:)

What's a smoothie?:( Never seen one in England and we don't have them in Japan. Please send me one.;) I make them in a blender with frozen chunks of fresh fruit, some powdered whey protein, ice and fruit juices. Sort of a healthy milk shake.

250W -- No! No! 260W next week.:)Sure, go for it. You'll know by how the last one feels. If you can finish it at full power and not feel wasted, then the power is right.

I think you'll see a big difference when you're reasonably fresh. I think the hills on Sunday will seem flatter than ever.
;)
What, after one VO2MAX session?
Tongue in cheek I guess!;)

What, after one VO2MAX session?No, from what appears to be ~225W of sustainable power and 250W of climbing power.

No, from what appears to be ~225W of sustainable power and 250W of climbing power.
RD, you're turning me into a complete and utter power junkie. The figures you mentioned above, I was only dreaming about 3 months or so ago and here we are. The mind boggles when contemplating what may be possible. Will I look back on those figures and think "Is that all I could do then?"

I know you don't like setting targets which you may not be able to achieve, but having smashed the 200W barrier, I have to now look at the 300W barrier. I visualize it everyday and think nothing is going to stop me. At my age I should wish time passed a little slower, however, I can't wait for the next training session soon after finishing the last one.

I'm on such a high at the mo, am thinking of extending my course again this Sunday to take in another 5km of climbing.

I know you don't like setting targets which you may not be able to achieve, but having smashed the 200W barrier, I have to now look at the 300W barrier. I visualize it everyday and think nothing is going to stop me. At my age I should wish time passed a little slower, however, I can't wait for the next training session soon after finishing the last one.My philosophy about setting targets goes beyond cycling. It has to do with recognizing and celebrating all progress, regardless of how small. If you look back at your posts in this thread, you were (and should have been) thrilled with each and every bump in your 20min L4 power. The performance gains alone motivated you to continue with your program and it was your consistency of effort that was really responsible for your progress. The gains weren't measured against an expectation, they were measured against nothing. They were just gains, to be enjoyed for what they were -- improvements. You're actually in the right country to appreciate this philosophy. The Japanese didn't get to their current market position in automobiles with one massive push. They just improved their products a little bit each year.

I'm on such a high at the mo, am thinking of extending my course again this Sunday to take in another 5km of climbing.Cool.:cool:

It has to do with recognizing and celebrating all progress, regardless of how small. If you look back at your posts in this thread, you were (and should have been) thrilled with each and every bump in your 20min L4 power.
I am going to try and think this way.:) MY biggest problem has always been big goals, overtraining and taking big breaks. :o

Hey Tyson, congrats...keep it up, big guy.

Netsciber Wrote:


I am going to try and think this way.:) MY biggest problem has always been big goals, overtraining and taking big breaks. :o

Hey Tyson, congrats...keep it up, big guy.Today 02:01 AM

Best of luck with your training in future NS. You'll get there if you take one step at a time.
And thanks for the congrats, but it's really no big deal, just another rung on the ladder.;)

RD, have been doing some thinking today. At the moment I feel 3 consecutive days (Tues/Wed/Thur) is a little too tough for me as yet. Especially with 2 of the days at FT 120% plus. The problem is, if I have Wed as a rest day, I'm only training 3 days a week. 2xHI plus a long Sunday ride.

My thoughts run along the lines of:

Mon - VO2Max + 1x20 @ 80/90%FT

Tues - Off

Wed - 2x20 @ 90% FT

Sun - 100km plus with lots of climbs.

Alternatively, as above + 1 hour easy ride in the gym on Saturday at say,

180W.

I don't know how the latter will affect Sunday's ride.

I would appreciate your opinion here. Cheers!

Tyson

PS I haven't thanked you lately for all your help. You obviously don't have to take the time out to help a silly old twit, but you do. Very much appreciated.

Reminds me of a song:

You're my soul and my inspiration,
without you RD - what would I be? or words to that effect.:)

RD, have been doing some thinking today. At the moment I feel 3 consecutive days (Tues/Wed/Thur) is a little too tough for me as yet. Especially with 2 of the days at FT 120% plus. The problem is, if I have Wed as a rest day, I'm only training 3 days a week. 2xHI plus a long Sunday ride.
My thoughts run along the lines of:
Mon - VO2Max + 1x20 @ 80/90%FT
Wed - 2x20 @ 90% FT
Sun - 100km plus with lots of climbs.I like the Sun ride, although I'll just have to guess what the intensities are. As to your other days, your plan is 80mins at L4+ (assuming you bump the intensity to >=91%FT). I'd rather see you get at least 120mins at L4+, regardless of how you get it. You may be overestimating the stress of the VO2MAX efforts. Let me introduce you to a new tool you can use to compare the training stress of different rides, regardless of the composition of the rides. The tool is Training Stress Score(TM), developed by Andy Coggan. [You know, it's sort of interesting that, apart from the PM itself, every tool I use to plan and manage my training was invented by Andy (himself or in collaboration with Hunter Allen).] Anyway, TSS is defined and explained here (page 10) http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf. I have a small application that computes AP, NP, IF and TSS for a ride script. Send me a PM with an email address and I'll send it to you. I built the app to create CSV files to import non-PM rides into CP, but you can use it to calculate the above stats for any ride script. I ran the numbers for a couple of rides for you, to illustrate how to use the numbers. The rides were: (1) a 2x20 @ 210W with 5min before and between the 20min intervals @ 100W, and (2) 4x5 @ 260W with 5min at 100W before and between each interval + 10mins @ 100W after the last 260W interval + 1x20 @ 210W. Here are the numbers for these rides:
AP NP IF TSS
188 199 .88 65
177 208 .92 99
These rides illustrate the value of these stats pretty well. Looking at AP, the 2nd ride appears to be the easier ride. But, NP is the better measure of the overall intensity of the ride and clearly ride #2 is the harder ride. I don't think an NP of 208 is outside your range now, but you will know you have put in some work. The TSS measure takes into account both intensity and duration, so you can see that by this measure the 2nd ride is ~50% greater than the 1st ride. And, I think this is about right. So, 2x ride #2 is about equivalent to 3x ride #1. You'll have to find (by trial and error) your own body's tolerance for total daily and weekly training stress. I use ~150 TSS points per day as my transition point for a day off the next day and I try to keep my weekly total under 1000 points. I'm not sure you can't handle 300 TSS points per week plus your Sunday ride, but you'll have to expreriment yourself to find your tolerance for stress.

PS I haven't thanked you lately for all your help. You obviously don't have to take the time out to help a silly old twit, but you do. Very much appreciated.My pleasure. I think there are a few others following this thread and so there's probably a leverage effect. When I first started riding, I had the unbelievably good fortune to train every day with a phenomenal cyclist (state champ, member of US Olympic and World Championship road teams). He taught me most of what I know and more recently I have devoured the work of Andy Coggan, Ric Stern and others. So, I feel I have an obligation to do what others have done for me -- share. People like you who ask good questions, take advice seriously and have a good work ethic make it worthwhile. Keep up the good work.:D

I have a small application that computes AP, NP, IF and TSS for a ride script. Send me a PM with an email address and I'll send it to you.Can I please have it too? :D

Tyson, I was kinda thinking of racing you by numbers since I am following almost the same routine of 2x20's :p .

Can I please have it too? :D

Tyson, I was kinda thinking of racing you by numbers since I am following almost the same routine of 2x20's :p .Sure, it's on its way.

I think I mentioned once before RD, when it comes to figures and formulas I'm totally useless. As soon as someone tries to explain something using maths, my firewall springs into action - the visor comes down and that is that.:confused:
I read your post three times and skimmed through information in on page 10 etc. of the link you gave me. Sorry RD but it just leaves me cold. I'm a firm believer in "keep it simple stupid". I follow what you suggest I do in the gym, but I can't handle working out the week's TSS etc. I prefer to fly by the seat of my pants and feel instinctively what's good and what's bad for me.
This applys even more so when I'm out on the road. I feel intuitively how much power I should be generating and for that matter, am capable of generating.
If I disappoint you, well that's life! Maybe as time goes by I will slowly incorporate more technical details into my riding, but I'm definitely not ready yet.

In a lighter vain; set off at just after 4.30am this morning and headed for the mountains. On the first real hill - the 15% one you told me to avoid, I went up there like I've never climbed it before. Was hardly breathing at the top!
Around 3 hours I suddenly felt one of those inexplicable surges of energy. Which was fortunate because I was 3 minutes away from where I had to turn off if I wanted to increase my distance again. So added another 8 km to last Sunday's ride.
Again I know it doesn't sound much, but 5km of that was climbing and it included a short (400m) pig of hill (13-17%) I admit to standing up on the 17% bit.;)

Anyway, finished the 93km ride strongly and at the same average speed give or take as last Sunday.
Thanks to you RD it's slowly but surely coming. Another month of VSO2Max
training plus the 1 x 20 intervals and the mind boggles as to what's around the corner.
I hope to build up to the June event distance (100 miles) by the last Sunday of May. Do you think that's wise?

And now for the gentleman who in another thread recommended 1 litre of liquid per 15 kilometers. On the ride above I drank only 300 milliliters and
didn't need anymore. Had one banana before setting off and 2 bananas plus 1 powerbar during the ride. Actually took 2 powerbars but didn't want the 2nd one.

NS wrote:


Tyson, I was kinda thinking of racing you by numbers since I am following almost the same routine of 2x20's :p .
I'm at a distinct disadvantage in this race as you don't reveal any figures.:)

And how much younger than me are you NS?:rolleyes:

I'm at a distinct disadvantage in this race as you don't reveal any figures.:)
And how much younger than me are you NS?:rolleyes:
Oh come one. I know we cant do this without numbers. I am currently struggling with my equipment situation. I do not have a powermeter. My kurt Kienetic with a power computer should arrive tomorrow. The last time I checked on a performance fluid trainer with an axiom computer my FT was around 130 and I weigh 47kgs and am 36yrs old.
The reason I am curious of comparative progress is that currently I am on the same regimen that you are. 2x20's for life. I know there are a dozen more variables that are not accounted for but I thought it would be fun too. :D

Oh come one. I know we cant do this without numbers. I am currently struggling with my equipment situation. I do not have a powermeter. My kurt Kienetic with a power computer should arrive tomorrow. The last time I checked on a performance fluid trainer with an axiom computer my FT was around 130 and I weigh 47kgs and am 36yrs old.
The reason I am curious of comparative progress is that currently I am on the same regimen that you are. 2x20's for life. I know there are a dozen more variables that are not accounted for but I thought it would be fun too. :D
Well, thanks for that NS. but I think I've probably offended RD (I'm a bit blunt at times) although I didn't intend to insult him in any way whatsoever. So this thread will die a death I should imagine, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it so far, and shall for ever be grateful to RD for making me see what can be achieved on the bike with a little effort. Did I say a little effort?:rolleyes:
It's killing me but..........................................:D ;)

I'm a firm believer in "keep it simple stupid". I follow what you suggest I do in the gym, but I can't handle working out the week's TSS etc. I prefer to fly by the seat of my pants and feel instinctively what's good and what's bad for me.Your workouts have been very simple so far (e.g., 2x20s @ FT). But, that is going to change as you begin to do more complex workouts (e.g., 4x5s @ 120%FT + 1x20 @ 91%FT). It becomes very difficult to manage stress without some way of comparing two or more workouts with each other. But, that's exactly what TSS does. So, here's a way to use TSS without being a math wizard. At the moment, you will be doing some combination of three intensities: Recovery, 91%FT, 100%FT and VO2MAX at 120%FT. Here is a table of TSS points per minutes for each intensity.
0.42 Recovery
1.38 91%FT
1.67 100%FT
2.40 120%FT
So, here's how you use these numbers. You just multiply them by the total minutes at each intensity and then add them all up. So, your 2x20 workout (assuming 5min warmup and 5mins between the 20s) is a total of 71 points. Your VO2MAX workout (4x5 @ 120%FT + 1x20 @ 91%FT with 10mins recovery after the last VO2MAX effort) is a total of 88 points. You can work out the stress of any combination of these efforts and compare them. As to the math, I think they teach this in the 4th grade here. Even a non-math type should be able to work this out. As to the value of the data, you'll figure it out after you overtrain and have to take a month off. So, just tuck this away somewhere and keep flying by the seat of your pants. Eventually, you'll need it.

I hope to build up to the June event distance (100 miles) by the last Sunday of May. Do you think that's wise?Wise to slowly build up your endurance? Absolutely. Long events are all about endurance and power management. I get a kick out of people who proudly say they don't want to be a "slave" to a power meter on a ride and that they want to manage the ride by "feel." In almost the next sentence, they tell the story of how the bonked on a long ride. I just yawn.

I think I've probably offended RDYou haven't offended me. I have been on my bike quite a bit working on a very interesting project with my cycling club. I'm organizing a group to ride a century (100 miles) in 5 hours or less. That's an average pace of 20mph for you non-math types.;) That's a pretty quick pace for non-competition cyclists. When you sit around among a group of non-competition cyclists and discuss their centuries, very few have ever ridden one in under 5 hours. Hills and wind increase the difficulty of this feat greatly and we have plenty of both here. My course has a total of 2600' of gross climbing and the usual winds are ~15mph. We did a 50-mile practice ride today with 11 riders (I was the only one with a USCF license), in a total time (net of stops) of 2:23:50. The next practice ride will be 75 miles and then we'll step up to the big one. Running an efficient TTT strategy with 11 recreational cyclists is challenging, but the most interesting challenge has been to work out the perfect pacing plan. I have elected to limit the ride to <=200W of sustainable power. On today's ride, my NP was 191W, so that constraint appears reasonable. But, a TTT pacing plan is built around the team member with the least power and there's a huge difference in how much power the guy on front puts out depending on hills and wind. Our plan today ranged from ~225W to ~375W. That's a pretty big difference.

RD, this is a quickie before I respond to your last long post.

My young adversary e mailed to tell me he has bought some "go faster pedals" and his climbing and speed on the flat has improved drastically. He has bought some Looks, which I used to ride with in England. In Japan however, I've been a bit chicken and am using platform pedals. I was thinking of going to my LBS tomorrow to get some new pedals and shoes. I checked several threads and everyone seems to have a different idea as to what pedals to get, which I suppose is only natural.
My question is, not what pedals to get because I'll have to decide myself tomorrow, but do they really make that much difference. I read somewhere in these forums that for a pro at least, with or without cleats would probably not make that much difference.

Anyone at all having strong views on this subject? Their opinion would be greatly appreciated.

My question is, not what pedals to get because I'll have to decide myself tomorrow, but do they really make that much difference. I read somewhere in these forums that for a pro at least, with or without cleats would probably not make that much difference.I think the shoes are actually more important than the pedals. There are lots of clipless pedals available, with subtle differences in how you clip in and out and whether they "float" or not and how many adjustments they have to tweak the way they perform. Go to an LBS and check out several models on a trainer if possible. What many people fail to focus on is what I think is the more important issue -- the shoes. A good shoe is as comfortable as a moccasin in the upper and rigid as steel in the sole. I ride a Sidi Genius shoe with a CF sole and it's fantastic. Extremely comfortable from day one and very good at power transfer on the downstroke (the only part of the stroke that matters -- apologies to those who believe in "circular" pedaling).

My young adversary e mailed to tell me he has bought some "go faster pedals" and his climbing and speed on the flat has improved drastically.
Ahhh, so now the head games are coming into play. Let the equipment "arms race" begin. ;)

Anyone at all having strong views on this subject? Their opinion would be greatly appreciated.
They do help, and are much more comfortable to ride. Don't expect a "drastic" improvement in your speed, but you can still brag to your buddies about how you're flying up hills as a result of your new stuff. Tell him you you bought some $50 carbon fiber bottle cages, too, and see if he'll bite on that. :)