It's killing me but..........

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I'd be really curious to see how many watts you are putting out on these climbs. The main problem with these grades is that unless you can increase power to well over 200w bike speed gets very slow and it's hard to stay balanced. I know because I have intentionally dropped power on such grades to the minimum to see what it is. I plan most of the climbing routes for my club and we have some members with ~150w of sustainable power. I don't want to take them up a climb where their bike speed gets so slow they fall over. They might be a bit upset (with good reason).
When I used to ride out of the saddle, I weaved at times with the effort. But not now, steady as a rock! In fact last Sunday was hardly breathing. The hill is 50 mins into my course so was saving myself a bit for the remaining approx 3 hours. As to the watts, I'll let you know when I get a PM.:D

This morning did the best and the hardest session ever in the gym.

1x5 @ 180W

1x10 @ 200W

1x5 @ 220W

Five minutes spinning at 35W then

1x5 @ 180W

1x5 @ 200W

1x10 @ 220W

The last 5 minutes were not far off purgatory. RD, I think I'm reaching a plateau at 220. I hope it's only an intermediate plateau.:(

Can't imagine 240W for any length of time.

PS Did a hard 75km ride on Sunday in the mountains, which I imagine must have sapped some energy but still...................

1x10 @ 220WThis is consistent with an FT=200W

The last 5 minutes were not far off purgatory. RD, I think I'm reaching a plateau at 220. I hope it's only an intermediate plateau.:(I think it's too soon to be thinking plateau. If you go a couple of weeks and see no increase in your 2x20s, then maybe you can start thinking plateau.

Can't imagine 240W for any length of time.I think you could hold 240W for ~5mins, although the last min would be pretty painful.

PS Did a hard 75km ride on Sunday in the mountains, which I imagine must have sapped some energy but stillNo doubt about it.

My suggestion is to assume that you are now at FT=200W and start doing your 2x20s at 200W. Next week I'll introduce you to 120%FT intervals. These will help you with the hills up to ~5mins duration. I'm sure you don't believe me, but they're actually not any harder than the 2x20s you have been doing. What makes a high-intensity effort hard is not the absolute intensity, but rather the combination of intensity and duration. The 120%FT intervals will begin to train a separate and distinct energy system, as you continue to train your aerobic energy system.

This is consistent with an FT=200W

I think it's too soon to be thinking plateau. If you go a couple of weeks and see no increase in your 2x20s, then maybe you can start thinking plateau.

I think you could hold 240W for ~5mins, although the last min would be pretty painful.

No doubt about it.

My suggestion is to assume that you are now at FT=200W and start doing your 2x20s at 200W. Next week I'll introduce you to 120%FT intervals. These will help you with the hills up to ~5mins duration. I'm sure you don't believe me, but they're actually not any harder than the 2x20s you have been doing. What makes a high-intensity effort hard is not the absolute intensity, but rather the combination of intensity and duration. The 120%FT intervals will begin to train a separate and distinct energy system, as you continue to train your aerobic energy system.
I was going to take the day off tomorrow, but you've inspired me to go for the 2x20 @200. 200W feels quite comfortable at the mo. I'll see how I feel when I wake up tomorrow morning.

PS Have control of the diet at last and have lost more than a kilogram. 2.2 pounds plus;)

PS Have control of the diet at last and have lost more than a kilogram. 2.2 pounds plus;)Now I know you're serious about showing your young friend your rear wheel on a climb in May.:D

RD wrote:



I'd be really curious to see how many watts you are putting out on these climbs.


It's difficult to compare the road with the gym. In the gym I ride TTstyle perched on the very point of the saddle, elbows resting on the handlebars and clasping the dislplay with both hands - almost like having tri-bars.
When climbing I sit as far back as I can without losing power, hands parallel and about 18 inches apart on the handlebars in front of me. Arms are slightly bent at the elbow. And here's, where to me, the difference comes in; I drive from the hips as someone told me a long time ago. In the gym I'm sitting right over the pedals and the legs are doing most of the work.
So I would guess, on the hills comparing it with the effort in the gym to generate 220 Watts, I'm generating between 240 and 260W albeit only for a relatively short time, especially the 260W effort which I only muster up for 15% plus grades.
I could be way out, but there you are.:)

Hi Rapdad

I have posted before and your imput was great. I have been doing the suggested 2x20min intervlas (3 of them per session, twice a week) and they have been working great, they were at a cadence of 70-75, my question is if I do the same workout & wattage but at a cadence of 90-95 will that increase my speed as some people are suggesting it does? They say this is called speed work, since I have been doing all muscular power workouts before. Whatever your answer are you 100% sure about it?

Thanks again for your help & knowledge
Jeff

Well, a strange week in the gym has ended.

Tues wasn't a bad session although a little tired from Sunday's ride.

Wed was a disaster 1x15 @200W and 1x10 @200W My legs were like lead and I was completely and utterly knackered!:( I don't think I reached a cadence of 60.

Anyway, forced myself to the gym today not expecting to be able to do much.

Started off at 200W and it felt 10 times better than yesterday, so instead of 2 x20 @200W did:

1x30 @ 200W plus 1x10 @200W at a cadence of around 70, and still had something left in the tank! Can't explain that.

So RD, what's next week's programme? - 120%FT sounds awfully like 240Watts to me.:eek:


Jeff wrote:


I have posted before and your imput was great. I have been doing the suggested 2x20min intervlas (3 of them per session, twice a week) and they have been working great, they were at a cadence of 70-75, my question is if I do the same workout & wattage but at a cadence of 90-95 will that increase my speed as some people are suggesting it does? They say this is called speed work, since I have been doing all muscular power workouts before
Do you mind revealing what wattage you're working at? Probably make my figures look stupid, but I would be interested to know.:)

I have been doing the suggested 2x20min intervlas (3 of them per session, twice a week) and they have been working great, they were at a cadence of 70-75, my question is if I do the same workout & wattage but at a cadence of 90-95 will that increase my speed as some people are suggesting it does?If you ride them at the same power, then by definition you will be riding at the same speed regardless of the road grade or wind. As to whether you will be able to sustain the power longer at the higher cadence, that is possible. I know that I am more comfortable at a cadence near 100, although I have never done a max duration at power test between 70-75 and 90-95. I can almost guarantee that your HR will be higher at the higher cadence, but that is not a measure of your intensity of effort and only serves to underscore the shortcomings of using HR to measure or manage intensity of effort.

Whatever your answer are you 100% sure about it?The only thing I am 100% sure of is that I am not 100% sure of anything in this sport. Actually, I take that back. I am 100% sure there are cyclists with more power than me.

Thanks again for your help & knowledgeMy pleasure.

1x30 @ 200W plus 1x10 @200W at a cadence of around 70, and still had something left in the tank! Can't explain that.That's awesome, especially the 1x30. That shows you're really consolidating the FT=200W. They'll get easier and easier.

So RD, what's next week's programme? - 120%FT sounds awfully like 240Watts to me.:eek:Want a sneak peak, do you? Okay, here's the deal. Your FT is a function of two things. One, your VO2MAX is an absolute upper limit to your aerobic capacity, but at least as important to FT is your aerobic efficiency. You have been working exclusively on your efficiency and not on raising your VO2MAX. I deferred that because it is highly responsive to training but whatever improvement you are going to get you are going to get most of it quickly. Increasing aerobic efficiency is a much longer process, so I wanted you to get started ASAP.

The classic VO2MAX work is at ~120%FT. Your max duration will be ~5 mins, give or take. What makes a VO2MAX effort hard is not the 120%FT intensity but rather the duration. The first few minutes aren't that hard at all. It's the last couple of minutes and the last minute in particular (of your max duration) that are brutal. But, the adaptation benefit kicks in much sooner than the last minute or two. There's simply no need to ride VO2MAX intervals to exhaustion as some do. The first thing you're going to do is to determine your max duration at 240W. This is a key performance test and also will be the basis for setting the duration of your VO2MAX intervals. IOW, I don't know what the duration of your intervals should be until I know how long you can hold 240W as though your life depended on it. So, you'll do a test at the beginning of your gym workout, warmup at an easy pace for 5mins and then ride at 240W until you absolutely cannot hold 240W any longer even if a brand new, PM-equipped bike is yours for free if you can just hold it for 5 secs longer. When your power drops below 240W, you're done, end of test. Then we'll figure out how much to take off for your intervals (e.g., 1 min). On your gym days, you'll begin with ~4-5 VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT with equal duration recovery at 100W, then as much FT work as your schedule permits (e.g., 20-40mins). It's nothing to be feared, although the max duration test can be a bit unnerving.

That's awesome, especially the 1x30. That shows you're really consolidating the FT=200W. They'll get easier and easier.

Want a sneak peak, do you? Okay, here's the deal. Your FT is a function of two things. One, your VO2MAX is an absolute upper limit to your aerobic capacity, but at least as important to FT is your aerobic efficiency. You have been working exclusively on your efficiency and not on raising your VO2MAX. I deferred that because it is highly responsive to training but whatever improvement you are going to get you are going to get most of it quickly. Increasing aerobic efficiency is a much longer process, so I wanted you to get started ASAP.

The classic VO2MAX work is at ~120%FT. Your max duration will be ~5 mins, give or take. What makes a VO2MAX effort hard is not the 120%FT intensity but rather the duration. The first few minutes aren't that hard at all. It's the last couple of minutes and the last minute in particular (of your max duration) that are brutal. But, the adaptation benefit kicks in much sooner than the last minute or two. There's simply no need to ride VO2MAX intervals to exhaustion as some do. The first thing you're going to do is to determine your max duration at 240W. This is a key performance test and also will be the basis for setting the duration of your VO2MAX intervals. IOW, I don't know what the duration of your intervals should be until I know how long you can hold 240W as though your life depended on it. So, you'll do a test at the beginning of your gym workout, warmup at an easy pace for 5mins and then ride at 240W until you absolutely cannot hold 240W any longer even if a brand new, PM-equipped bike is yours for free if you can just hold it for 5 secs longer. When your power drops below 240W, you're done, end of test. Then we'll figure out how much to take off for your intervals (e.g., 1 min). On your gym days, you'll begin with ~4-5 VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT with equal duration recovery at 100W, then as much FT work as your schedule permits (e.g., 20-40mins). It's nothing to be feared, although the max duration test can be a bit unnerving.
RD, have you ever checked out your past lives? Perhaps you have French blood and were around at the time of Marie Antoinette. The executioner maybe. or perhaps you were the resident torturer for Attila the Hun.
If not, where do you think you inherited your sadomasochistic perversion from?

The forecast is heavy rain for Sunday, so that sounds as good a time as any to do the V02 Max test (after 2 days rest). I take it that as you don't mention cadence, it is irrelevant.

Just one question - how if at all will this affect my overall power?

Oh, one more. After I've done this test will I be able to do anything else in the gym that day, bike or otherwise?

Tyson,

The 1X30 @ 200 watts is a breakthrough. Congratulations.

RD, when you have a minute, could you decribe the adaptations that result from these "VO2Max intervals" and the connection of these adaptations to the development of a rider's "anaerobic capacity." In earlier posts I think you have described the benefits of intervals @120%FT as developing anaerobic capacity. I guess from the name of the interval I would expect V02Max intervals to promote aerobic capacity, adaptations that increase the amount of oxygenated blood delivered to muscle tissues. Instead V02Max Intervals seem to promote adaptions that increase one's anaerobic capacity.

Tyson I am looking forward to your reports as you progress through this phase of your training. These reports put a very human face on the physiology and are something I look forward to reading.

RD, have you ever checked out your past lives? Perhaps you have French blood and were around at the time of Marie Antoinette. The executioner maybe. or perhaps you were the resident torturer for Attila the Hun. If not, where do you think you inherited your sadomasochistic perversion from?I think Paul "Bear" Bryant may be a distant relative.

The forecast is heavy rain for Sunday, so that sounds as good a time as any to do the V02 Max test (after 2 days rest). I take it that as you don't mention cadence, it is irrelevant.Cadence is whatever cadence feels most comfortable to you. My pedaling style is that I focus exclusively on the downstrokes, from ~1-5 o'clock. With a cadence lower than ~90, I get frustrated waiting for the upstroke leg to get into the "firing" position (1 o'clock) after I stop pushing with the other leg at 5 o'clock (if that makes any sense). But, you may be more comfortable at a different cadence (higher or lower). Toward the end of the test, it will require your full concentration to maintain power, so you don't want a cadence that you find annoying or frustrating. Experiment with different cadences at 240W.

Just one question - how if at all will this affect my overall power?Oh, this should increase your power significantly, unless your VO2MAX is already at its max. And, it will begin to tap a largely separate energy source, your anaerobic energy source. It will take slightly higher intensity intervals to fully train your anaerobic energy source, but that's another booster for efforts > FT (e.g., climbs). Think of what you have been doing as working on the cake and this begins to put the icing on the cake. Oh, and the cake isn't done yet either.

Oh, one more. After I've done this test will I be able to do anything else in the gym that day, bike or otherwise?You'll be good as new within 15 minutes. It's actually harder mentally than physically, maintaining your power that last minute, trying with all your might to avoid a power drop that you know is inevitable. The last digit on the stopwatch seems stuck in the mud in the last minute of a max duration test at any power. But, this may not even drive your HR to its max.

RD, when you have a minute, could you decribe the adaptations that result from these "VO2Max intervals" and the connection of these adaptations to the development of a rider's "anaerobic capacity." In earlier posts I think you have described the benefits of intervals @120%FT as developing anaerobic capacity. I guess from the name of the interval I would expect V02Max intervals to promote aerobic capacity, adaptations that increase the amount of oxygenated blood delivered to muscle tissues. Instead V02Max Intervals seem to promote adaptions that increase one's anaerobic capacity.120%FT is targeting VO2MAX (oxygen delivery) more than anaerobic capacity, but there is definitely some benefit to anaerobic capacity. VO2MAX is the upper end limiter of aerobic efforts, with aerobic efficiency being the other factor that determines FT. Anaerobic capacity is actually a separate (partially renewable) energy source, the components of which are adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and creatine phosphate (CP). The sweet spot for targeting anaerobic capacity is a bit higher power (e.g., 120-150%FT) and, obviously, shorter durations (e.g., 30sec-3min). Anaerobic capacity is also highly trainable.

It's not obvious on the surface that there is all that much difference between the target power levels for VO2MAX and anaerobic capacity training. But, when you take away what I call the "free" power (~100W), the difference is huge. Think about it for Tyson. His FT is 100W of work and 100W free. So, 120%FT (240W) is 140W of work or 40% more than his FT. That's huge. And, every 10W is another 10% of effective work. So, if he does his anaerobic intervals at, say, 260W, he will be working at 160%FT from an effective work perspective.

RD wrote:



Cadence is whatever cadence feels most comfortable to you. My pedaling style is that I focus exclusively on the downstrokes, from ~1-5 o'clock. With a cadence lower than ~90, I get frustrated waiting for the upstroke leg to get into the "firing" position (1 o'clock) after I stop pushing with the other leg at 5 o'clock (if that makes any sense). But, you may be more comfortable at a different cadence (higher or lower). Toward the end of the test, it will require your full concentration to maintain power, so you don't want a cadence that you find annoying or frustrating. Experiment with different cadences at 240W.



I fully understand what you're saying there. On Tuesday when my legs felt like lead and I couldn't up the cadence, things just got worse - every stroke was a physiological and psychological drain. As you say, I was waiting for the pedal to reach 1 o'clock each time. I think if you experience something like that, it's better to get of the bike and play croquet or something.:)



You'll be good as new within 15 minutes. It's actually harder mentally than physically, maintaining your power that last minute, trying with all your might to avoid a power drop that you know is inevitable. The last digit on the stopwatch seems stuck in the mud in the last minute of a max duration test at any power. But, this may not even drive your HR to its max.

Iow, after the test just spin a light weight for 10 or 15 mins, then do some intevals @ FT80/90% or similar, so as not to waste a training day.


I have a general question now, and would welcome answers from different quarters. With my 100 miler coming up in about 5 weeks or so, I am already planning things. As it is a 2 hour drive and the OFF is at 8am (registration @7.30) I aim to drive up the night before and sleep in the car. (big car) For breakfast I'm taking a large bowl of mixed cereals soaked in water over night, and before the off shall munch a couple of bananas.
Now, I've done a couple of centuries in the past, surviving on just 3 or 4 bananas (nothing else), but this 100 is a whole new ball game. It starts at a ski resort at 3000feet and then roller coasts it's way down to the lake taking in 3 mountain passes at between 2000 and 3000 feet (and several lesser climbs) Along the top of the lake it's flat of course, then up we go again taking in 2 more passes before reaching the Japan inland sea. After circumnavigating a peninsular (maybe flat) we then climb from sea level back up to the ski resort and finish.
I plan to take 3 power bars and 2 or 3 bananas, one bottle filled with plain water, and one with ???? any good ideas?? There will probably be drink stations on the way; no info yet. As per usual I don't aim to stop for more than 5 or 10 minutes, so have I planned enough grub?
One final thing - salt! When I was in my 30s I was lying well clear in 3rd place in a field of 200 in a marathon - suddenly I hit the wall at 22 miles and got cramp in the calves, later analized as lack of salt. End of race!
The same thing happened to me last October around the 80 mile mark on the bike going around the aforementioned lake. Luckily it happened within spitting distance of a convenience store, so I rushed in, nay hobbled in and bought the saltiest snack I could find, gobbled them all up and fully recovered to finish the course. Anyone else have lack of salt problems and what do you do about it?

Now, I know sustenance for a Century has been discussed in these forums, but this is a notorious Century, and the temperature is expected to be around 30c (86F) with high humidity. I only have one shot at it and I want to get it right.

Thanks in advance. TYSON

Tyson,

The 1X30 @ 200 watts is a breakthrough. Congratulations.

RD, when you have a minute, could you decribe the adaptations that result from these "VO2Max intervals" and the connection of these adaptations to the development of a rider's "anaerobic capacity." In earlier posts I think you have described the benefits of intervals @120%FT as developing anaerobic capacity. I guess from the name of the interval I would expect V02Max intervals to promote aerobic capacity, adaptations that increase the amount of oxygenated blood delivered to muscle tissues. Instead V02Max Intervals seem to promote adaptions that increase one's anaerobic capacity.

Tyson I am looking forward to your reports as you progress through this phase of your training. These reports put a very human face on the physiology and are something I look forward to reading.
Sorry Curlew, I missed your post completely. Thanks for the congrats, but really RD should be congratulated for getting his protege to that level through his help and guidance.
I'm glad you find this thread useful. Although I'm always laying out my progress, I'm sure other "lurkers" are also finding it beneficial and applying the advice given. Just glad none of them live near me!:D


RD Wrote:


It's not obvious on the surface that there is all that much difference between the target power levels for VO2MAX and anaerobic capacity training. But, when you take away what I call the "free" power (~100W), the difference is huge. Think about it for Tyson. His FT is 100W of work and 100W free. So, 120%FT (240W) is 140W of work or 40% more than his FT. That's huge. And, every 10W is another 10% of effective work. So, if he does his anaerobic intervals at, say, 260W, he will be working at 160%FT from an effective work perspective.

And apologies to you too RD. I missed this post, and I'm still trying to fully understand what you're saying. These anaerobic intervals at 260Watts you mention - I assume I've got these to come soon.:eek:

I'm thinking of buying some iron boots to help with the down stroke.;)

I'm still trying to fully understand what you're saying.I'm saying that the way we characterize power relative to FT understates the true differences. Take, for example, VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT. On the surface, this appears to be 20% more power than at FT. But, think about it for a moment. The first 100W is virtually zero effort -- just sit on the seat and turn the pedals over and you'll do 100W. So, if your FT is 200W, that's 100W for free and 100W of work. Likewise, 240W is 100W for free and 140W of work. 140W is 40% greater than 100W, so in terms of real work 240W is 40% greater than 200W and that's a huge difference. Does that make sense?

These anaerobic intervals at 260Watts you mention - I assume I've got these to come soon.:eek:Oh, come on, quit trying to get ahead of the program. By the time you're doing 260W intervals, your 200W intervals will be boring.

I'm thinking of buying some iron boots to help with the down stroke.;)I don't know about the iron boots, but some powerful CO2-powered pistons that you could strap to the back of your calves would be nice.

RD Wrote:



I'm saying that the way we characterize power relative to FT understates the true differences. Take, for example, VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT. On the surface, this appears to be 20% more power than at FT. But, think about it for a moment. The first 100W is virtually zero effort -- just sit on the seat and turn the pedals over and you'll do 100W. So, if your FT is 200W, that's 100W for free and 100W of work. Likewise, 240W is 100W for free and 140W of work. 140W is 40% greater than 100W, so in terms of real work 240W is 40% greater than 200W and that's a huge difference. Does that make sense?



After reading it again I get it. IOW 50% of the 200W involves very little effort. The other half is where the work effort comes in. So by doing 240W the percentage increase is based mainly on the 2nd half. Quite a difference!:)

Sorry RD didn't get round to doing my V02max test today. Woke up at 4.30, checked the weather and by 5am I was on the road. I increased the distance today, 2 weeks ahead of schedule. Up from 75km to 85km.
10 km doesn't sound much, but after the 6km climb I found a hairy scary narrow 4km twisting downhill. I ended up in a steep valley in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a few farmhouses and rice paddies. After about 1km, I then had to climb again for 4km (9-12%) to get back on my old course.
Pretty tired tonight but satisfied!;)
Will do the V02max test on Tues in the gym.

Sorry RD didn't get round to doing my V02max test today. Woke up at 4.30, checked the weather and by 5am I was on the road. I increased the distance today, 2 weeks ahead of schedule. Up from 75km to 85km. 10 km doesn't sound much, but after the 6km climb I found a hairy scary narrow 4km twisting downhill. I ended up in a steep valley in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a few farmhouses and rice paddies. After about 1km, I then had to climb again for 4km (9-12%) to get back on my old course.
Pretty tired tonight but satisfied!;) Will do the V02max test on Tues in the gym.You did better than I. I rode in an 80-mile non-competitive event on Saturday. But, the local clubs always send their best guys to the front and the pace gets pretty brisk. I stayed with the lead group the first hour, but got dropped when they accelerated hard after a stop light. I chased for another half hour and picked up a bunch of dropees, but never got back on. After two hours, both of my quads cramped (too few hours on the bike the last few months), so finished the ride with my quads almost fully seized up. Sometimes when my leg got to the bottom of the downstroke I wasn't fully sure it would come back up again (LOL). But, I survived. Increasing your distance in anticipation of your big ride in June is a good idea. It really will be all about pace. Too bad you don't have a PM. That would make it easy.