It's killing me but..........

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Several members of my weekend riding club in their 30s and 40s would be thrilled with your current power numbers. And they ride every weekend.
I missed this post RD. They would?!?! Some people are easily thrilled, aren't they?:) I put my thrill factor at around 250/260W No, I tell a lie, 280W I think would give me a certain degree of satisfaction. For the mo my current power numbers are a bit depressing. I know it takes time, so I shall have to be patient.

:eek: Horrible thought: what if I plateau out around 230W say.

Perish the thought Tyson, you're going all the way boy. And for the lurkers in the background - if I can do it so can you, so on yer bike!:D

I missed this post RD. They would?!?!Yep, they would.

I put my thrill factor at around 250/260W No, I tell a lie, 280W I think would give me a certain degree of satisfaction. For the mo my current power numbers are a bit depressing. I know it takes time, so I shall have to be patient. :eek: Horrible thought: what if I plateau out around 230W say.I don't think the absolute number is what is important. I think simply being able to say that one has reached his or her physiological limit is a great achievement. The issue isn't whether your mountain is taller than someone else's mountain. The issue is that you reached the top of your mountain. Hey, Lance makes most of us look like pikers.

Jumping the gun a bit here aren't we?:DYou could probably do an hour at 200w tomorrow (if you were in the middle of a Bengal Tiger preserve in India and were making a run for the gate). A true FT is set with high motivation, as in a 40K TT. So, to ride a routine training ride at 200w for a full hour means your true FT is probably a bit higher.

You could probably do an hour at 200w tomorrow (if you were in the middle of a Bengal Tiger preserve in India and were making a run for the gate). A true FT is set with high motivation, as in a 40K TT. So, to ride a routine training ride at 200w for a full hour means your true FT is probably a bit higher.IOW without the assistance of a Bengal Tiger, you don't think I could do it.:mad:

The forecast is rain again this Sunday, if it should rain I'll go to the gym and destroy that 200W barrier just to prove you wrong!:D

IOW without the assistance of a Bengal Tiger, you don't think I could do it.:mad:

The forecast is rain again this Sunday, if it should rain I'll go to the gym and destroy that 200W barrier just to prove you wrong!:DYou misunderstood my post. I am saying I think your true FT is 200w now, but that it takes high motivation to ride at one's max power for a full hour. Some people can ride a routine training ride at their MP and others need some additional motivation. Hence the Bengal Tiger reference. When you do ride a full hour at 200w in the form of a routine training ride, it means that your true 60MP (FT) is actually a bit higher than 200w!

I don't think the absolute number is what is important. I think simply being able to say that one has reached his or her physiological limit is a great achievement. The issue isn't whether your mountain is taller than someone else's mountain. The issue is that you reached the top of your mountain. Hey, Lance makes most of us look like pikers.
Amen to that. There's always someone out there pushing more W/kg than you, no matter what. Some of those people are untrained! Once I realized that the goal wasn't to beat everybody all the time, but to do what I can with what I have, I began to enjoy training, and the modest gains that it produces for me at this point in my training age, much much more.

Once I realized that the goal wasn't to beat everybody all the time, but to do what I can with what I have, I began to enjoy training, and the modest gains that it produces for me at this point in my training age, much much more.I believe in this so strongly that I am exploring the development of a completely new TT series modeled after the NASTAR series in snow ski racing. There would be an unlimited number of "gold" medals, because they would be awarded on the basis of absolute performance rather than who comes in 1st - 2nd - 3rd.

Amen to that. There's always someone out there pushing more W/kg than you, no matter what. Some of those people are untrained! Once I realized that the goal wasn't to beat everybody all the time, but to do what I can with what I have, I began to enjoy training, and the modest gains that it produces for me at this point in my training age, much much more.Sound advice there KM. Reminds me of my powerlifting days. A skinny guy with a bit of a hunchback walked into the gym and said he wanted to start training. John the coach thought "what can I get this guy to do?" Anyway, he got him started on deadlifting. Believe it or not, this guy who had never touched a weight in his life lifted 2 and half pounds short of the British record! But no matter how much John coached him afterwards he was never able to lift a pound more. Always wondered what happened to that guy.

Back on topic. At my age I don't have any great aspirations of glory. I simply want to cycle to the best of my ability. However, without competition and setting your sights on some goal or other, liking giving your cycling partner a run for his money, completing a long gruelling ride etc., I think you might impose artificial limits on yourself and your potential.
People who have posted in this thread freely admit to being lazy with their training and motivation, a bit like me when I first found this forum. Perhaps they haven't given themselves a goal, because as I tell my students who want to learn English, if you have no real reason for studying English, you wont achieve the level you dream about. So create a good reason and adhere to it!
End of sermon, I shall now step down from the pulpit.:)

Perhaps they haven't given themselves a goal, because as I tell my students who want to learn English, if you have no real reason for studying English, you wont achieve the level you dream about. So create a good reason and adhere to it!
My 0.02$ here. Many times there are reasons other than lack of goals that take people down the same path of demotivation. In my case my goals were always too aggresive, burning me out to such an extent both mentally and physically that it forces me to take a big break. Most of the times, coming back from this big break has been almost difficult. Yup, thats my excuse :D
But your point well taken. A PROPER and REALISTIC goal is a must have. :)

RD I need a little bit of advice.

I went out in the car today to find an extension to my Sunday route ready for May when I step up the mileage before, my June 4th ride. On the steepest bit of the usual course I noticed for the frst time ever there was a sign saying 15%.
Don't know if that's rated as steep.

Anyway, I digress. As I mentioned before the course I'm doing at present has a 6km climb - quite easy though. When I got to the top, instead of turning left as I usually do, I took a right turn and travelled for about a mile before taking this likely looking road on the left. Now I've lived in Japan a long time and climbed many mountains but I've never been up a road like this one. First it narrowed down to a single lane just wide enough for the car, and it wound up and up through the thickly forested mountain. God knows what I would have done if a car had come the other way.
Well this road, nay track, snaked its way up for 5 km and I was terrified I was going to go over the edge or into the deep rain gulley on the other side. I mentioned 15% above - this was worse - 15% - 20%. My ears popped twice,so you can guess how high it was. When I got to the top, at the entrance to the road down the other side there was a sign saying DANGEROUS DESCENT written in large red Chinese characters.
Anyway I survived, and I never saw a soul over the entire route.
Which brings me to my question at long last. This route only added about 10km to the present course. Would this be more beneficial than looking for a flatter route but longer in preperation for June? IOW tough course or long course?
Not even sure I could climb that route.:(

Which brings me to my question at long last. This route only added about 10km to the present course. Would this be more beneficial than looking for a flatter route but longer in preperation for June? IOW tough course or long course?Wouldn't you have to ride back down from the clouds at some point? Personally, I'd avoid the winding single-lane roads posted as DANGEROUS DESCENTs, but then I probably haven't yet lived the long, full life that you have? ;) :D

Off-topic: the road is in Japan, but they posted the warning sign in *Chinese* characters?? :confused:

RD I need a little bit of advice. I went out in the car today to find an extension to my Sunday route ready for May when I step up the mileage before, my June 4th ride. On the steepest bit of the usual course I noticed for the frst time ever there was a sign saying 15%. Don't know if that's rated as steep.I don't even need to get to Part B of your post. 15% isn't steep, it's off-the-charts-steep for you at this time. Anything >10% and 200w of power means your bike speed gets too slow to ride in the saddle (<5mph), not to mention cadence (depends on your gearing). So, right away we're talking about climbing out of the saddle and/or climbing at >200w. Those are two topics we haven't even touched on, but the short answer is that climbing out of the saddle is incredibly fatiguing without the right technique and lots of practice. When you watch the pros dance up the mountains in the steep stages of the major tours, you can't see what's going on but they are using their body weight almost entirely. Their arms mainly just pivot the bike on the frame axis (to an optimal angle of 25 degrees IIRC) to position the crank directly under their center of gravity where they let their body weight drive the pedal down. Precisely at the bottom of the downstroke, they pivot the bike. Timing and balance take a lot of practice, especially at a high cadence. Newbies use their upper bodies way too much and get exhausted after ~1 min. So, a long climb out of the saddle is out of the question. Now, as to climbing >200w, you could probably climb for a few minutes at, say, 120%FT (240w). You would empty your anaerobic tank (separate energy system) within ~5mins (not sure because you haven't tested your 120%FT max duration). Again, useful for a short climb but a 5km climb at 120%FT is out of the question.

Short answer: find roads with climbs ~6%. Stay away from 10%+ grades, at least this year. Or, get a mountain bike.

Now I've lived in Japan a long time and climbed many mountains but I've never been up a road like this one. First it narrowed down to a single lane just wide enough for the car, and it wound up and up through the thickly forested mountain.

Wow, the image of Basho on his "Narrow Road to the Interior" came to me when I read this. That hill would be a killer, but the chance to ride through that country "with Basho" would draw out of me the resolve to keep cranking out the training watts!

Wouldn't you have to ride back down from the clouds at some point? Personally, I'd avoid the winding single-lane roads posted as DANGEROUS DESCENTs, but then I probably haven't yet lived the long, full life that you have? ;) :D

Off-topic: the road is in Japan, but they posted the warning sign in *Chinese* characters?? :confused:
No it wasn't a mistake, the Japanese since time immemorial have begged, borrowed, copied or stolen just about everything in their culture. Written language is no exception. Actually Chinese Characters were brought to Japan by immigrating Chinese around the 3rd/4th century. The Chinese had developed this form of writing perhaps as early as 2000BC in the Hwang Ho (yellow river) area.
The Japanese of course have their own pronounciation for the individual characters, but in most cases the meaning is the same.

Hope that alleviates your confusion Frenchy.:D

Wow, the image of Basho on his "Narrow Road to the Interior" came to me when I read this. That hill would be a killer, but the chance to ride through that country "with Basho" would draw out of me the resolve to keep cranking out the training watts!
Hey Curlew you can't leave people scratching their heads wondering who Basho was.:)
Here's a link for anyone who's interested

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/5022/bashobio.html

I don't even need to get to Part B of your post. 15% isn't steep, it's off-the-charts-steep for you at this time. Anything >10% and 200w of power means your bike speed gets too slow to ride in the saddle (<5mph), not to mention cadence (depends on your gearing). So, right away we're talking about climbing out of the saddle and/or climbing at >200w. Those are two topics we haven't even touched on, but the short answer is that climbing out of the saddle is incredibly fatiguing without the right technique and lots of practice. When you watch the pros dance up the mountains in the steep stages of the major tours, you can't see what's going on but they are using their body weight almost entirely. Their arms mainly just pivot the bike on the frame axis (to an optimal angle of 25 degrees IIRC) to position the crank directly under their center of gravity where they let their body weight drive the pedal down. Precisely at the bottom of the downstroke, they pivot the bike. Timing and balance take a lot of practice, especially at a high cadence. Newbies use their upper bodies way too much and get exhausted after ~1 min. So, a long climb out of the saddle is out of the question. Now, as to climbing >200w, you could probably climb for a few minutes at, say, 120%FT (240w). You would empty your anaerobic tank (separate energy system) within ~5mins (not sure because you haven't tested your 120%FT max duration). Again, useful for a short climb but a 5km climb at 120%FT is out of the question.

Short answer: find roads with climbs ~6%. Stay away from 10%+ grades, at least this year. Or, get a mountain bike.Oy, oy, oy, RD, you have made a terrible presumption here. I've been cycling up that 15% hill for 3 years now. Yes, I used to be out of the saddle but now I ride it with my rear end firmly in the saddle and one cog off the lowest gear, and at a speed of 6 plus kmph and getting stronger (and easier).:p

I don't think I mentioned another short hill I do (100 meters) which is even steeper than the aforementioned hill. This hill comes 90 minutes into the ride and used to kill me, but I always kept going because if I stopped the mosquitos would get me (in the summer), and I mean dozens of the little b-----ds! Anyway, I now ride this hill the same as the other, in the saddle and 1 cog off the bottom.
But thanks for the explanation on climbing out of the saddle. I'll work on that on other hills.
Tyson

Hey Curlew you can't leave people scratching their heads wondering who Basho was.

Tyson, I knew that you would come through with a great description of Basho for us! Thanks for the link. Thumbing through "The Narrow Road to the Interior" I came across this passage that I had underlined heavily. Basho says:

"I felt three thousand miles rushing through my heart"

Isn't that the way we feel when all of those training miles take us to a great day on our bike?

Oy, oy, oy, RD, you have made a terrible presumption here. I've been cycling up that 15% hill for 3 years now. Yes, I used to be out of the saddle but now I ride it with my rear end firmly in the saddle and one cog off the lowest gear, and at a speed of 6 plus kmph and getting stronger (and easier).:pWell, I'll put it another way. I climb at ~4w/kg and I avoid 15% grades.;)

Well, I'll put it another way. I climb at ~4w/kg and I avoid 15% grades.;)
The problem is RD, that "The Hill" is the gateway to all my mountain courses. It starts where suburbia ends and If I don't go up it I go nowhere. Also, 70 plus% of Japan is covered in mountains and "gentle incline" is not a term you can apply to many of them. IOW if you don't want to circle round and round the houses, you have to climb 9% plus climbs. My cyling partner and I regularly do this.
On one of his courses we do sometimes, there is a 2 km climb at I would guess at 12/13% for part of it.

In fact I had a call from my cycling partner the other day. Apparently he and the Japanese group he rides with, went on a 100km ride in the mountains, and on the way home he bonked after climbing a mountain which sounds somewhat similar to the one I found yesterday.

Tyson

The problem is RD, that "The Hill" is the gateway to all my mountain courses. It starts where suburbia ends and If I don't go up it I go nowhere. Also, 70 plus% of Japan is covered in mountains and "gentle incline" is not a term you can apply to many of them. IOW if you don't want to circle round and round the houses, you have to climb 9% plus climbs. My cyling partner and I regularly do this. On one of his courses we do sometimes, there is a 2 km climb at I would guess at 12/13% for part of it.I'd be really curious to see how many watts you are putting out on these climbs. The main problem with these grades is that unless you can increase power to well over 200w bike speed gets very slow and it's hard to stay balanced. I know because I have intentionally dropped power on such grades to the minimum to see what it is. I plan most of the climbing routes for my club and we have some members with ~150w of sustainable power. I don't want to take them up a climb where their bike speed gets so slow they fall over. They might be a bit upset (with good reason).