Cadence question

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Equus: Thanks, rest assured I will only use this for my own personal use. Only one problem...I don't understand it. Sorry to be such a newbie dunce but can you explain the seated hill build up, seated big gear climb and standing little gear climb and what gear A,B,C,D,and E might be for a beginner with 3 chainrings? Also, is this done on a trainer (which I don't have) or can it be done on my bike? Are the hill buildups actually done on a hill or just simulated on flats? Sorry if I sound really ignorant.

Equus: Thanks, rest assured I will only use this for my own personal use. Only one problem...I don't understand it. Sorry to be such a newbie dunce but can you explain the seated hill build up, seated big gear climb and standing little gear climb and what gear A,B,C,D,and E might be for a beginner with 3 chainrings? Also, is this done on a trainer (which I don't have) or can it be done on my bike? Are the hill buildups actually done on a hill or just simulated on flats? Sorry if I sound really ignorant.
no, its cool. no need for apologies. thats what these forums are for :) yes, these are all done on a trainer and would be virtually impossible to do this exact workout on the road as well as on a spinning bike (no cadence). the names of the intervals are just titles of what you're doing/simulating on the trainer. seated big gear climb = big chainring in the front, small ones in the back - very hard - done seated to work on leg and hip strength. standing little gear climb = middle front chainring (if you have 3) and middle to small cogs in the back, usually done at a higher cadence with your butt out of the saddle. i left the actual gears out for consideration of my coach. i don't think it would be relavent anyway because this is all trainer work.

no, its cool. no need for apologies. thats what these forums are for :) yes, these are all done on a trainer and would be virtually impossible to do this exact workout on the road as well as on a spinning bike (no cadence). Thanks for the more in-depth info. I don't have an indoor trainer and I don't have cadence on my computer. I just have to count it for 15 seconds. Would you say that a computer with cadence would be worthwhile for me to get? My computer is fine but I nearly severed the wire to my computer somehow. I taped the ends together with electrical tape but sometimes I have trouble getting it to work. Any recommendations on a computer with cadence?

eek! i can't even imagine riding without my computer. i have the cateye astrale 8. http://www.cateye.com/en/products/viewProduct.php?modelId=4&catId=6&subCatId=0

its a low-line product but i don't need anything fancy. i use it for elapsed time, cadence, distance, and speed (max, avg). it shuts off after an hour or so to conserve battery power. the time stops when the bike stops...which i love because of all the stupid lights i have to go through to get to the good roads. i like it.

personally, i believe cadence is very important. especially when in conjunction with an indoor trainer. its almost impossible to do a workout without that knowledge or piece of the pie. yes, its possible, but if there is the need to *train* then cadence is a necessity. if cycling is purely recreational, then screw it! do whatever the hell you want!

I usually shift down at least one gear to do one leg drills. I can't keep it up very long either. Maybe 15-30 secs/ leg, a little longer if I shift down more, and I've been doing them for a while now (I switch legs when my pedal stroke gets choppy)

Craig's list (www.craigslist.com (http://www.craigslist.com/)) is kind of like the Little Nickle ads of the internet, it's place for people to post all kinds of things they are selling or that they want, as well as community forums and job posting etc. There are several Texas cities listed so hopefully there is one close to you. For my trainer I placed a Wanted to Buy ad and had someone reply, so never fear if you don't see exactly what you want.
What's a good stationary trainer that you would recommend? ("cyclops fluid") ?? I'm new to the cycling world.

Interesting thread...

Something that hasn't been mentioned, and to clarify some points from a physiological and biomechanical standpoint

1) If you're "bouncing" in the saddle (and i don't know what *you* mean by bouncing) it could very be that your saddle height is too *low*. If however, you mean your hips are rocking up and down then this would likely mean your saddle is too high (i.e., your pelvis tilts to accomodate the oversized seat height). Bouncing usually means too low a saddle.

2) There are many ways to set seat height and bike position, which is a multifaceted issue depending on bone lengths, flexibility, bike kit (e.g., different size cranks), and breast size (e.g., you don't want your knees smacking you in the chest at the top of every pedal rev), as well as many other issues. However, a good rule of thumb for setting saddle height is 100% of greater trochanter height with your legs straight and apart at the same width as when cycling. Put the pedals in *line* with the seat tube (not at 6 o'clock) and set seat height (to the point where you sit on the saddle) from the top surface of the lower pedal to the seat point as 100% of greater trochanter height. This is a reasonable starting point for most people (male and female). Other options are to check with a bike shop who knows what they're doing or a good cycling coach etc

3) Often when in a group, you need to accelerate and decelerate to match other riders due to changing dynamics within a group. As you become more experienced at riding you will sense when the group's velocity is changing and be better able to match these changes. Eden mentions soft pedalling - :-).

4) It may not be necessary to increase cadence. Physiologically speaking, thermodynamic efficiency is highest at a lower rather than higher cadence, however this cadence will increase with increasing power (i.e., at low power most efficient cadence will be X revs/min, and at higher power it will be X+Y revs/min)

5) smoothness (which is a horrible misnomer, see point 6) will likely increase simply by riding more (i.e., you get fitter) - i.e., you'll *feel* smoother

6) Perhaps paradoxically, better cyclists (i.e., elites) pedal more by *mashing* than those who are less good cyclists (i.e., state level cyclists). Coyle et al., 1991, showed that the better cyclists stomped down harder on the power phase of the pedal stroke (i.e., 12 to 6 o'clock) and pulled up less than less good cyclists who pushed down less and pulled up more. Data was from force measuring pedals and (iirc) iEMG analysis

7) There is no evidence to show that isolated leg drills do anything other than increase the ability to do isolated leg drills well. So they're pretty useless unless e.g., you partake in one-legged cycle races or only have one leg. Often the reason people improve at pedalling when doing these is a) it provides interest/stimulating when on an indoor trainer, and b) as a collarary to A they do more cycling and hence improve because of that aspect (i.e. duration)

8) As others have mentioned try doing intervals at higher cadences and see how this feels

9) Average cadence for most racing cyclists is between ~80 and 105 revs/min depending on the situation and e.g., topographical conditions

10) Anyone that writes that a higher cadence "reduces the watts per pedal stroke" should be sacked as a coach. The force requirement would be reduced not the power output. This is because power output is equal to angular velocity x torque (angular force), thus if force goes down, and cadence goes up (and conditions stay the same) then power output will stay constant

11) At a given power output, you will *always* be less efficient at higher cadences rather than lower cadences. However, *optimal* cadence (i.e., most comfortable for producing the desired power) will usually be between 80 and 100 revs/min. People who are more slow twitch fibre orientated (i.e., type I, and which you'd only know by muscle biopsy) gravitate towards a lower cadence rather than a higher cadence. Most efficient cadences, btw, are ~ 60 revs/min

12) it's unlikely that low-cadence/big gear seated trainer work would increase strength, as the forces required are likely way to low (even though it feels very fatiguing or force-sapping). To stimulate strength, forces have to be very high and as an all-out standing start would require the highest cycling forces, seated sub-maximal (i.e., sustainable) work would require a much lower function of force (as power and force decreases with increasing duration), such that strength wouldn't increase

Ric
(who trains at an average of ~ 80 revs/min, with an average race cadence of 95 revs/min according to my computer - not that i ever look at this metric while training or racing, as self-selected cadence is usually okay - i.e., we automatically select a cadence that feels most comfortable for a given power output)

Ric,
I appreciate your input but as the original poster of this thread I have to say I found your post less than helpful. I would say I'm of at least average intelligence but your post was over my head. I would suggest you determine the level of ability/experience of the poster and gear responses to them. Otherwise, in my opinion, your responses aren't very helpful.
I do have a comment about single leg drills though. Even though I haven't done these yet I can see that they could be helpful with muscle memory. If only one leg is used then that leg must make the full revolution on it's own...forcing it to work on the downstroke and upstroke, making a smooth circular motion...again, those may not be the proper terms but I am fairly new to this sport. That would seem to me to be a very helpful thing...having muscle memory for any repetitive process.

Ric,
I appreciate your input but as the original poster of this thread I have to say I found your post less than helpful. I would say I'm of at least average intelligence but your post was over my head. I would suggest you determine the level of ability/experience of the poster and gear responses to them.


apologies if you didn't understand everything. however, my post wasn't just geared as a response to you, but as a response to all the previous posts on this thread.


Otherwise, in my opinion, your responses aren't very helpful.


as we've never 'spoken' before (as far as i'm aware) i wouldn't necessarily know at what level to pitch the response (i know biking newbies who wouldn't have an issue with what i wrote above, and conversely i know others who would).


I do have a comment about single leg drills though. Even though I haven't done these yet I can see that they could be helpful with muscle memory. If only one leg is used then that leg must make the full revolution on it's own...forcing it to work on the downstroke and upstroke, making a smooth circular motion...again, those may not be the proper terms but I am fairly new to this sport. That would seem to me to be a very helpful thing...having muscle memory for any repetitive process.



see point 7 above. There's no benefit to cycling with single leg drills except in certain circumstances (e.g., you only have one leg, you take part in one legged bike races, etc).

Cycling is a gross motor control sport (i.e., it doesn't require fine motor skills, such as in e.g., rifle shooting) such that the legs rotate around a fixed point by fixed cranks (i.e., you pedal in a circle). This means that very little skill is required to pedal the bike (obviously there's skill in descending a mountain pass at speed) and produce forward movement, and as such the pedalling skills (thermodynamic efficiency) between an elite professional and an untrained person are very similar. This is because your feet are fixed to the pedals and you can't really do much wrong (unlike e.g., with running where you can look a right spanner with your legs wobbling all over the place in comparison to a Kenyan marathoner).

During cycling better cyclists push down more on the pedals and pull up less, compared to less good cyclists (see point 6). In other words, this is the opposite of what you're suggesting above.

ric

ric,

i'm confused at your take on single leg drills, i can't tell whether you are for or against them. apologies. i think i get the impression that you do not agree with doing them. if this is so, then i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that topic. coming from a background in the javelin (in college as well), we practiced drills for muscle memory probably 70% of the time and only actually threw about 15-20% of the time. technique drills are imperative. i just don't understand the mentality to ride the bike all the time, which is the impression that i get from your responses. little to no weight training and no drills that break down technique (i.e. single leg drills)? Please respond. Thanks for the discussion....

Cycling is a gross motor control sport (i.e., it doesn't require fine motor skills, such as in e.g., rifle shooting) such that the legs rotate around a fixed point by fixed cranks (i.e., you pedal in a circle). This means that very little skill is required to pedal the bike. This is because your feet are fixed to the pedals and you can't really do much wrong.

During cycling better cyclists push down more on the pedals and pull up less, compared to less good cyclists (see point 6). In other words, this is the opposite of what you're suggesting above.
Every major sport I can think of breaks down skills and works on individual components with the idea that the muscles remember the skill so it is done correctly and automatically without the athlete having to think about it. Granted the feet are attached to the pedal and travel in a fixed motion...but if you look at a new cyclist, like me, compared to an experienced cyclist, like you, you will see a much more fluid motion coming from you than from me. My legs haven't learned to travel in a fluid circular motion. They only want to travel up and down. So I would have to believe single leg drills would help accomplish the fluid circular motion. As you say, better cyclist push down more on the pedals and pull up LESS...that isn't to say that they don't pull up at all. New cyclist still need to learn to pull up on the pedals a bit...which isn't really a natural thing to do...therefore the single leg drills.

ric,

i'm confused at your take on single leg drills, i can't tell whether you are for or against them. apologies. i think i get the impression that you do not agree with doing them. if this is so, then i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that topic. coming from a background in the javelin (in college as well), we practiced drills for muscle memory probably 70% of the time and only actually threw about 15-20% of the time. technique drills are imperative. i just don't understand the mentality to ride the bike all the time, which is the impression that i get from your responses. little to no weight training and no drills that break down technique (i.e. single leg drills)? Please respond. Thanks for the discussion....

Apologies, still very short on time, so i'm going to be brief:

I've no idea how you can be confused on my opinion of them, i've clearly stated they're a waste of time (except in certain circumstances). Maybe you're being funny, and it doesn't come over well (in this medium)?

as i mentioned in my post above cycling is a gross motor control sport, whereas (e.g.) javelin is a fine motor control sport (i mentioned rifle shooting), as such technique (or fine motor) skills are more important in javelin (or rifle shooting) than cycling.

wouldn't single leg drills still be just riding the bike?

In lieu of my time shortage, i'll point you in the direction of the Coyle paper, http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf

Essentially, in terms of endurance cycling performance (i.e., races that last > 90-secs) the only thing that will make you better at it (assuming you're a trained cyclist) is riding the bike (of course, there's a whole lot of different intensities and durations you can ride for!)

ric

Apologies, still very short on time, so i'm going to be brief:

I've no idea how you can be confused on my opinion of them, i've clearly stated they're a waste of time (except in certain circumstances). Maybe you're being funny, and it doesn't come over well (in this medium)?

wouldn't single leg drills still be just riding the bike?

In lieu of my time shortage, i'll point you in the direction of the Coyle paper, http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf

Essentially, in terms of endurance cycling performance (i.e., races that last > 90-secs) the only thing that will make you better at it (assuming you're a trained cyclist) is riding the bike (of course, there's a whole lot of different intensities and durations you can ride for!)

ric
I do not have time to read through Coyles report to see how viable the research is, but I doubt he has trained any olympic or Tour De France winners. According to Carmichael Training Systems (CTS), "fast pedal excercises increase pedal effiency and .... allows you to develope a smooth pedal stroke."

Pedaling with one leg is a good way learn a complete pedal stroke. If you are having problems with keeping a smooth pedal, then going back to the basics is a good technigue. I have used this method in other sports.

Practice faster cadence and you will become smoother. I know that bouncng was part of my fast pedaling until training cured it.

Not all training tecniques will work for everyone. But good ones will work for the majority. Learn what will work for you and have fun riding.

I do not have time to read through Coyles report to see how viable the research is, but I doubt he has trained any olympic or Tour De France winners. According to Carmichael Training Systems (CTS), "fast pedal excercises increase pedal effiency and .... allows you to develope a smooth pedal stroke."


i guess this is ironic because Coyle has tested Armstrong, and he was part of the research to which i pointed.

Efficiency in terms of pedalling, which is thermodynamic efficiency, is well established in all the literature pertaining to this that a lower cadence is more efficient than a higher cadence, irrespective of what CTS does or doesn't say.


Pedaling with one leg is a good way learn a complete pedal stroke. If you are having problems with keeping a smooth pedal, then going back to the basics is a good technigue. I have used this method in other sports.


As any sports psychologist will tell you, the best way to learn a new skill is not by breaking it down or separating it, but doing it as a whole. There is no evidence - other than anecdotal "old wives tales" to support one-legged pedalling (other than if you only have one leg, or take part in one legged events).


Practice faster cadence and you will become smoother. I know that bouncng was part of my fast pedaling until training cured it.


i don't believe that anyone is not saying you shouldn't pedal "fast" (whatever fast may be). However, pedalling fast with very low power may not be of much use. Or would you like to take your chain off and really rev it?

Ric