Flyer (Question)

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Dude,

You've got some issues with this doping thing. What's your deal (background)? I checked out your posts and you seem to be a one man, anti-doping campaign. Is it REALLY as bad as you make it out to be? If so where's your "proof"? With the testing the I know pro riders go through, I just can't believe it is as bad as you make it out to be. I just don't get it (maybe I'm naive). Why the emotion (I was going to use "anger" but thought that was too strong a word). I'm not trying to flame you, I'm trying to figure out what drives you to post what you do. Why should I beleive you?

Me, I'm a mid-30's recreational rider. Never even through about racing or dope.....

As I said, I'm not trying to get into a flame war, I would just like a little more "proof" when you post "acusitory" statements. That might win you a few more points...

L

Flyer,
I'm with Lonnie Utah on this topic. He asked you a question and you gave him a run around answer. No real proof in ANY of your posts. When asked for examples, you give off information that you have read, but nothing firm.

I would love to see your "proof", it would really help make sence of your posts, but you NEVER have, and probobly never will give anything concrete.

Something that can be proven is the fact that the lists you give as to cyclists that have died due to doping is false. Not one of the death certificates for these guys lists EPO/doping or performance enhancers as the DIRECT cause of death, not even associated with or due to.

Another claim you have is that cycling has turned to doping for commercial profit. I bet the shoes on your feet are Nike and ALL of the cloths on your back are "Brand Name." The sad truth of society today is that everything is associated to a name. Cycling just uses the "marketability" to promote the sport, as do all other sports.

Dude, this is not a personal attack against you and your beliefs, it is just a question as to how you can come up with some of your statements. I'd love to hear or see some concrete evidence on doping from you, but right now, you don't provide any of that.

More than sufficient proof of widespread doping. Frankly, it's inescapable.
Flyer,

Thanks for your replies. I won't disagree, as you have obviously put more time into this than I care to, but even if doping is widespread, what about the old adage "innocent until proven guilty."

Again, I'm not baiting you, I'm simply searching for answers....

L

Flyer has yet to provide one shred of evidence that would be worth anything in a court of law. All he does is provide unproven accusations, a few facts (very few) and an abundance of opinion based on tenuous at best information. he is the biggest coward on this forum, having never answered a question that takes him to task directly or stepped up to a challenge. He is someone out for attention and will say anything to get it. Read through his archives and you will see this. You will also see how, after touting something over and over, he will drop it in the face of reality biting him in the ass. He is merely a lonely attention seeker who claims to love the sport but only rips on it and everyone involved, including any poster on this forum who doesn't agree 100% with him. Look at how often he will bump a thread from months or even a year or so ago with the same thing he already posted in it...just for attention. Read through my archive and his and you will see all of this.

we are not in a courtroom, nor has a courtroom helped prevent doping.
Flyer,

What, in your opinion, should be done to resolve the doping problem? I've seen alot of stuff from you, but I don't think I've ever seen you offer an opinion on what the solution is (it may be there, I just might not have seen it).

The only cowardly clown on this forum in broken down house. btw: we are not in a courtroom, nor has a courtroom helped prevent doping.

The 2000 Lille Trials---which you are happily ignorant of, established trauma doping as a standard and widespread practice in the peloton. Today, the anemia and renal drugs are even better and more powerful. And we have plasma substitutes.

House's processed sugar fed diet has lead him to suspend reality as he bonks over his keyboard.

Sing your ad hominem songs to Pantani, Zanetti, Millar, Museeuw, Seromn, Hamilton, Perez, Camenzind, Virenque and your other doped out pals.

House must be a drug addict, because nowhere will you read with greater denial than in his meanspirited attacks. You must have much to hide.

He has no case, just lots of personal attacks.

Free advice: Do not read the daily sporting news--you might have a heart attack.
Do you see what i am saying Utah? There could not have been a better response to prove my point.

He knows there can't be anything done about that..........like in all businesses and sports.....cheaters/lyers everywhere. Like I said before: you/he better deal with it.........And to go back to youre first respond I also pointed out to him that he has some huge fixation about doping. He has said that friends of him doped........and he has ridden with dopers......maybe there is youre answer. Still I would never post that much about it.

But hee everyone has there own fixation.


Flyer,

What, in your opinion, should be done to resolve the doping problem? I've seen alot of stuff from you, but I don't think I've ever seen you offer an opinion on what the solution is (it may be there, I just might not have seen it).

Flyer,

Thanks for your replies. I won't disagree, as you have obviously put more time into this than I care to, but even if doping is widespread, what about the old adage "innocent until proven guilty."

Again, I'm not baiting you, I'm simply searching for answers.... L
Actually, there is no "guilt" with a breach of the rules. It is an internal civil procedure reluctantly established by the UCI at the demands of WADA.

A respondent in a civil proceedings if they lose a case are up for suspension, expulsion, damages, fine, etc. No where is the word "guilty" used.

No incarceration on being found in breach and fines would only have to be paid if you or your team wished to continue in the sport. There would be no issue of an arrest warrant if you failed to show for a CAS Hearing.

OJ Simpson went through it and it appears Michael Jackson is heading that way.

Europeans accept that the peloton dopes. From these forums it is quite apparent that Americans have difficulty in finding that palatable, particularly now that Americans are winning. Cycling is huge in Europe and it is not uncommon for someone to know of an ex pro of any tier level who is paying the price in his health from doping.

There exists circumstantial evidence that the peloton dopes. One strong piece is the number of "asthmatics" in the peloton are 14 times higher than the average general population. However, it appears only circumstantial evidence that is in breach of the rules nabs riders. Like getting caught in possession of forbidden drugs. Not the dope tests.

But hee everyone has there own fixation.
True. I have one for redheads (So why did I marry a blonde????) :p

L

I also have had a problem with the looser rules of evidence regarding doping. It is becoming a modern witch hunt. However, given the difficulty of detecting some of the doping products, absolute proof isn't always forthcoming.

Information on doping in the peloton has been sketchy at best, when it comes to actual proof. The only people talking usually have an axe to grind, and their information could well be biased. A fired soeignor, a mechanic who thinks the star owes him a bike shop, a doctor who left the team under dubious circumstances. The accusations may be true, but so far the accusers have always been tainted with the possibility of ulterior motives. It's a shadowy world. Even WADA is not exactly impartial - Dick Pound tends to shout first and verify later (if at all) so even his pronouncements can be suspect. Usually, he is right, but an accusation from him is not a guarantee of guilt.

Even those caught are not necessarily given the same treatment. Virenque came back from a doping conviction to win King of the Mountain, and retire with honor. Pantani did not, his doping conviction led to his demise, and many feel that he was unfairly made into a sacrificial lamb. The politics of the peloton extend to doping convictions, too.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Stop the doping with draconian tactics, and you make cyclists into virtual prisoners. Don't stop it, and the sport's credibility will be destroyed, along with the cyclists.

In the end, it's all about money. The financial rewards of being a top cyclist are huge. For that sort of money, teams will bend the rules, and individuals will risk their own health.

So how many cyclists dope today? Beats me. But at least I'll admit that I don't have a clue.

Two comments about Flyer, one funny, one sad:

1) Funny- Flyer gets all worked up about "personal attacks" and "ad hominum" attacks, but his posts always include them. Of course we are talking about someone who claims to love a sport that he spends 100% of his time ripping on and talks of how bad the peloton is but mentors a young man to ride in it, so contradiction is a word he is quite familiar with.

2) Sad- A fellow cyclist dies and Flyer can only jump on the news to further his agenda, not even a note of sorrow for the family.

Another case of Flyer turning something into another one of his unfounded rants. Throw in a lie or two, add a personal attack and it's classic Flyer. Notice how he never really addresses either point.

Wow still bitch-fighting over who dopes and who doesn't. We need to have a poll who thinks it is the end of the world and who does not. Who does think it is the end of the world needs to take a close look in the world he/she lives in. It ain't a perfect world......will never be..........as long as there are humans. And put things in perspective..........I wil lose more sleep over another stupid war in iran then over a cyclist who was caught for doping or who dies.

Now I will leave the rest to debate again if he (or an other cyclist) doped or not doped. Which btw no one knows on this forum........only 3/4 people around him probably!


Wow a post without the standard name calling. Only liar--is that the best you have?

Has Gatorade consumption and processed sugar abuse adversely affected your already limited vocabulary?

Coward, liar? These are your core weapons---and your only feeble points.

The AIS doping scandal is no lie.

The Lance Armstrong/Michele Ferrari's conviction is no lie. The six lawsuits and two criminal investigations against Lance are no lie.

The 1990/1991 USCF Junior Road Team doping and lawsuits---no lie.

The dozens of heart-failure deaths are no lie.

Eddie Merckx's 3 failed dope tests---no lie.

Eddie Merckx's doping confession in retirement---no lie---though you campaigned hard for it to be one.

David Millar's Eprex EPO abuse---no lie.

Your pathetic behavior and doping apologies reveal your true passion---the promotion of illegal doping.

You must be a drug salesman under the pretence of a 'trusted coach'. There is no other explanation for your hostile behavior and utter contempt for anti-doping.

You oppose doping discussion, disclosure and have a 'shoot the messaenger reaction' to every new death, suspension, confession and arrest.

You have been outed as a drug dealer!

Wow a post without the standard name calling. Only liar--is that the best you have?

Has Gatorade consumption and processed sugar abuse adversely affected your already limited vocabulary?

Coward, liar? These are your core weapons---and your only feeble points. You mean the only ones you choose to see.

No, just the things you say about them, lies,assumptions and half-truths mixed in with a fact or two

[QUOTE=Flyer] The 1990/1991 USCF Junior Road Team doping and lawsuits---no lie.

The dozens of heart-failure deaths are no lie.

Eddie Merckx's 3 failed dope tests---no lie.

Eddie Merckx's doping confession in retirement---no lie---though you campaigned hard for it to be one.
Show me where I "campaigned" I asked you for the quotes and after saying it wasn't on the net because it was in the 70's, changing that to 1988 you never did find it, simply started crowing crap like this when someone else did. Once again you lie to try to make your point.

David Millar's Eprex EPO abuse---no lie. When did I say that was a lie??? Typical tactic by you, lie about what someone said or simply imply they said something they didn't.

Your pathetic behavior and doping apologies reveal your true passion---the promotion of illegal doping. Show me where I have "promoted" doping or made "apologies" for it. You just can't handle that someone doesn't buy into 100% of your crap. Remember "100%?" what you kept saying was the percentage of the peloton who is doping, strangely you backed off of that since you got your ass handed to you...again.

You must be a drug salesman under the pretence of a 'trusted coach'. There is no other explanation for your hostile behavior and utter contempt for anti-doping.

You oppose doping discussion, disclosure and have a 'shoot the messaenger reaction' to every new death, suspension, confession and arrest.

You have been outed as a drug dealer! Ahhhh, here we go, making ad hominim attacks, personal attacks. the exact kind that you cry like a little baby about. The funny part is that absolutely nothing I have ever said on here even implys that i am pro doping to anyone but you. Another funny thing is that YOU are the one who told us about how you mentored someone into the 100% doped (according to you for a time) peloton. Obviously using your logic you are pro doping.

Look it's fun handing your ass to you over and over, but at least make an effort above the third grade level. Still cowering from my challenge that would have knowcked one of us off here permanently???? If the shoe fits. LOL

I do read youre posts and others and ask questions (on the lotz case for example) from time to time. But I stil think that some, including you, are making it a TOO big deal. And it seems that you and others are making doping like a world problem.....which it isn't by far.

But then again I've never met dopers......i don't have friends who have doped. Maybe I would view it differently then!






The War in Iraq is debated on another post. Me thinks you ought to follow those.

This is about cycling---and the widespread practice of doping children (under age 18) and those chosing to earn a living by racing bicycles.

Modern doping, and the methods and products appear to 1) be highly effective at adding sustainable power/speed and 2) increase the risk of cancer and auto-immune illnesses and 3) heart failures.

Rather than change the subject---or proclaim your feelings of apathy---why not read other posts?

What's up with your need to supress doping disclosure?

I would have to agree with Flyer on this one. Its like Mr. Olympia claiming that he is "drug free" and Mr. Weider claiming that everyone in "Muscle and Fitness" is "drug free". I think someone famous once said "if you aint cheating, you aint trying"



That's utter bull. You go back and reread my posts.

Why cannot you grasp the obvious? Is it really so challenging to see the truth? Is the fog that soupy?

You have many public admissions on the record:

Merckx, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Plankaert, Chiotti, Thevenet, Van Der Velde, Laurent, Geminiani, Dotto, Letort, Winnen, Millar, Gaumont, Manzano, Camenzind, Lotz, Zulle, Virenque, Herve, Brochard, Moreau, amongst others---most of these confessions ocurring in retirement except for the Festina boys who cried under oath in a October 2000 Lille Courtroom.

Then you have the dozens of riders caught by customs agents, housekeepers, and police---not dope controllers:

Millar, Museeuw, French, Pantani, Stephens, Vandenbroucke, Sassone, Simeoni, et al...

Then you have the admission of team directors---years later such as in PDM & Festina whereby systematic EPO and other illegal drugs abuse was a standard practice.

Did you think things changed after 1991 or 1998?

Then you have a rider dying every 60 days.

Then you have Tyler Hamilton, Perez, Hawaiin Triathletes going blood doping positive. You have 6 of the top 10 Tour of Guademala riders going EPO positive--you have a 16 year South African going EPO positive. You have the winners of the past 4 years of junior world sprinter going drug positive.

You have Lance's trainer, Michele Ferrari's conviction.

You have Sandro Donati dossier and description of Francesco Conconi's corruption at the IOC. (Ferrari's mentor)

What additional proof do you require? How many more deaths? How many more convictions? How many more disgraces? How many more bi-polar behaviors?

Tearful confessions of each and every drug addict?

Guess what fellas, drug addict tend to live in denial which is where many fans prefer to live as well.

So, let's wake up and smell the IV feeds before the Tour de France throws up another big surprise 'doping scandal'

More than sufficient proof of widespread doping. Frankly, it's inescapable.

If you don't believe me---go ask a professional. They know what up with the meds.

Otherwise accept what corporate advertisers portray as 'clean sport' and buy their products.

No I do not own Nike stock nor wear their shoes.

But I am fond of life-science firms.