Discontent and Hate

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There is much to be learned in forums such as this but lately I am disturbed at what I am learning. Everyone has an opinion and as of late it seems all have an extreme one.
I am using someone else work below to better express my perspective.
Comment expected.

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind


The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”


The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”


The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”


The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“ ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”


The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”


The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”


And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:


So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

Your quotation is a borrowing from Greek philosophy - possibly the skeptics who believed knowledge to be impossible so that knowledge and opinion were recognised as being distinct.
How do you know that what you see or hear is what really exists in the way you perceive it? Or do you just pick up an approximation of a shared or assumed reality?
But I get your drift. I think these discussions are interesting but there are points where a thread will deteriorate into insults when people don't hear each other out. I've seen studio debates where folks hurl chairs at one another once dialogue fails.



There is much to be learned in forums such as this but lately I am disturbed at what I am learning. Everyone has an opinion and as of late it seems all have an extreme one.
I am using someone else work below to better express my perspective.
Comment expected.

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind


The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”


The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”


The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”


The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“ ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”


The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”


The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”


And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:


So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

I like it! I've heard the "blind men go to see an elephant" story, of course, but never so eloquently expressed.

I see what you mean about people in these forums shouting out their own views and ignoring others, but I don't think everyone does that; in fact, I think the people who do that are in a minority. To return to the analogy, they do indeed say "it's like a rope"..."it's like a tree"..."it's like a snake" etc., but there's nothing to stop everyone concluding that maybe this object can have more than one property, and reaching a common consensus. After all, we can only call things like we see them. The problem with the blind guys is not that they call things as they see (well, not SEE) them, but that they refuse to acknowledge any other viewpoint. Most members of this forum are intelligent, non-bigoted people who wish to discuss and learn rather than merely assert, IMO.

There is much to be learned in forums such as this but lately I am disturbed at what I am learning. Everyone has an opinion and as of late it seems all have an extreme one.

Very true Story.
But I believe that the greatest achivement of the Homo Sapiens is the ability to adapt to the Environment.
When you find yourself in a Hostile Environment, you start to defend yourself, preferably using equal or better Weapons.
In my opinion statements like 'if someone slaps you on the right cheek...' and so on, are complete Nonsense.

I like it! I've heard the "blind men go to see an elephant" story, of course, but never so eloquently expressed.

I see what you mean about people in these forums shouting out their own views and ignoring others, but I don't think everyone does that; in fact, I think the people who do that are in a minority. To return to the analogy, they do indeed say "it's like a rope"..."it's like a tree"..."it's like a snake" etc., but there's nothing to stop everyone concluding that maybe this object can have more than one property, and reaching a common consensus. After all, we can only call things like we see them. The problem with the blind guys is not that they call things as they see (well, not SEE) them, but that they refuse to acknowledge any other viewpoint. Most members of this forum are intelligent, non-bigoted people who wish to discuss and learn rather than merely assert, IMO.

No not everyone, but a few.

Who the hell would read all that blather?
Stop your whining.
If you wanna play with the bigs dogs, expect to get bit.
If you can't take it, go back to your sewing circle forum.

Trust me I have been bit as deeply as you could ever imagine and It wasn't here in this forum. Beside I am not whining just using an alternative way of expressing my opinion.
Like pissing in someone drink only different.

If you wanna play with the bigs dogs, expect to get bit.
If you can't take it, go back to your sewing circle forum.

So you think you're a big Dog, ey?
I think you're just one of those tiny, always barking ones. And you know what these Dogs never do, don't you?

Your quotation is a borrowing from Greek philosophy - possibly the skeptics who believed knowledge to be impossible so that knowledge and opinion were recognised as being distinct.
How do you know that what you see or hear is what really exists in the way you perceive it? Or do you just pick up an approximation of a shared or assumed reality?
But I get your drift. I think these discussions are interesting but there are points where a thread will deteriorate into insults when people don't hear each other out. I've seen studio debates where folks hurl chairs at one another once dialogue fails.


If you want to get a point across use plagiarizeism. Well, it works for me.
Yes territorialism is a marked animal characteristic. The discussion of late tend to deterioriate in the first couple of responses.Of course they are mostly Geo-Political.

There is much to be learned in forums such as this but lately I am disturbed at what I am learning. Everyone has an opinion and as of late it seems all have an extreme one.
I am using someone else work below to better express my perspective.
Comment expected.

well jhuskey, I enjoyed that story and I certainly agree that there can be no discussion when everyone here continues to put forth an extreme viewpoint. Now that the election is over maybe some of us can moderate our views a little and be a little more honest.

People here claim to want to have reasonable discussion but whenever a poster writes something intelligent or thoughtful it is completely ignored. Unfortunately a lot of posters seem to be enjoying the endless flaming, which leads me to believe that all of you seriously need to get laid to work out whatever hostility you all have.

Everyone who responds to the insane rantings of these trolls is just as guilty for the degeneration of these threads as the trolls are. You are all responding exactly as they want you to.

Now, speaking of trolls, I have to say that the ones frequenting the soapbox are quite pathetic are they not? I enjoy a good troll as long as they are witty or clever but szbert, iknowtest and some of the others are clearly not. They need to take lessons from babybunny, pokerpete and the RBR trolls who know how to get things done and make people laugh.

Hey, can someone help me with my math? Which of these equations is correct?:

1) Zapper = iknowtest

2) Weisse Luft = szbert = velogal

3) all of the above

Its no coincidence that Zapper and Weisse were not posting frequently when these other losers appeared.

Everyone who responds to the insane rantings of these trolls is just as guilty for the degeneration of these threads as the trolls are. You are all responding exactly as they want you to.


Hey, can someone help me with my math? Which of these equations is correct?:

1) Zapper = iknowtest

2) Weisse Luft = szbert = velogal

3) all of the above

Its no coincidence that Zapper and Weisse were not posting frequently when
these other losers appeared.

I agree with you, but I don't feel that guilty, is that bad?

For the math, I'd say 3, but 1 = 2 is also correct.

[QUOTE=Saucy]well jhuskey, I enjoyed that story and I certainly agree that there can be no discussion when everyone here continues to put forth an extreme viewpoint. Now that the election is over maybe some of us can moderate our views a little and be a little more honest.

People here claim to want to have reasonable discussion but whenever a poster writes something intelligent or thoughtful it is completely ignored. Unfortunately a lot of posters seem to be enjoying the endless flaming, which leads me to believe that all of you seriously need to get laid to work out whatever hostility you all have.

Everyone who responds to the insane rantings of these trolls is just as guilty for the degeneration of these threads as the trolls are. You are all responding exactly as they want you to.


I suppose I am as guilty as any but usually only respond when someone take a hard right or left that pushes my button.

Everyone wants to act like everyone can be right in their own way. Give me a break. If man A says you should believe in God and live as the Bible says to, and man B says there is no God and lives by his own desires. One is going to be right and one is going to be wrong. Everything is not relative and subjective. Everyone just wants to be tolerant and sing Koombaiya(no clue how to spell),but I think it better to stand up and believe in something, but what matters more is if what you believe in is right. I am pretty sure the elephant guy and I dont see eye to eye.

That's a good point about getting laid. I always get to thinking that some of these right-wing British women over here (who moan about sexual promiscuity and always seem to want to go to war) should just get themselves a toy-boy.





[QUOTE=Saucy]well jhuskey, I enjoyed that story and I certainly agree that there can be no discussion when everyone here continues to put forth an extreme viewpoint. Now that the election is over maybe some of us can moderate our views a little and be a little more honest.

People here claim to want to have reasonable discussion but whenever a poster writes something intelligent or thoughtful it is completely ignored. Unfortunately a lot of posters seem to be enjoying the endless flaming, which leads me to believe that all of you seriously need to get laid to work out whatever hostility you all have.

Everyone who responds to the insane rantings of these trolls is just as guilty for the degeneration of these threads as the trolls are. You are all responding exactly as they want you to.


I suppose I am as guilty as any but usually only respond when someone take a hard right or left that pushes my button.

I suppose I am as guilty as any but usually only respond when someone take a hard right or left that pushes my button.
Actually I think you have been one of the more restrained posters around here. You communicate your view without name-calling and personal attacks. And usually with a good joke thrown in as well.

So, I am curious. Did you vote for Bush or are you a Republican? There has been a lot of post-election discussion in the media about the future of the Democratic party in recent days. But I think the far more interesting topic is the future of the Republican party.

Are you happy with the direction the republican party is taking i.e. taking on the moral agenda of evangelical christians? What about Bush's fiscal policies which are clearly not conservative?

I have to imagine that there are a lot of dissatisifed moderate republicans but they seem to be keeping quiet about it. Most of the grumbling I have heard is from fiscal conservatives but I think the social progressives of the party are going to come out of the woodwork in the next four years.

I am just curious as to the true feelings of bush supporters now that the election is over. I'm not sure if you identify yourself as republican or perhaps you are actually part of the evangelical base yourself?

Everyone wants to act like everyone can be right in their own way. Give me a break. If man A says you should believe in God and live as the Bible says to, and man B says there is no God and lives by his own desires. One is going to be right and one is going to be wrong. Everything is not relative and subjective. Everyone just wants to be tolerant and sing Koombaiya(no clue how to spell),but I think it better to stand up and believe in something, but what matters more is if what you believe in is right. I am pretty sure the elephant guy and I dont see eye to eye.

You can't be right about any opinion. Yes, a broad majority may think that x thing is wrong (ie murder or slavery), but that still doesn't make it factually wrong. I don't know of any scientific way to prove such a thing. I'm not saying that I think that murder is okay, only that you can prove that maybe 99.9% of people believe that murder is wrong. Moral beliefs vary from person to person.

Philisophically, it's virtually impossible to prove anything to be true (yes, this is a tangent). For example, we, as humans, have come to believe that up is towards the sky, and down is towards the ground. We then extrapolate that since this true here, it must be true everywhere in the universe. But what about a planet in which gravity pulls to the side (yes, it is possible)? Say people live there. They might say that up is to (our) right, while down is to (our) left. Thus, they would believe those principles and say it's true for the entire universe.

I guess I'm just providing support to jhuskey's post/the famous elephant poem. "Truth is different depending on one's perception."

It's one thing though to stand up for what you believe in. It's another to just flame those who don't agree with you.

Actually I think you have been one of the more restrained posters around here. You communicate your view without name-calling and personal attacks. And usually with a good joke thrown in as well.

So, I am curious. Did you vote for Bush or are you a Republican? There has been a lot of post-election discussion in the media about the future of the Democratic party in recent days. But I think the far more interesting topic is the future of the Republican party.

Are you happy with the direction the republican party is taking i.e. taking on the moral agenda of evangelical christians? What about Bush's fiscal policies which are clearly not conservative?

I have to imagine that there are a lot of dissatisifed moderate republicans but they seem to be keeping quiet about it. Most of the grumbling I have heard is from fiscal conservatives but I think the social progressives of the party are going to come out of the woodwork in the next four years.

I am just curious as to the true feelings of bush supporters now that the election is over. I'm not sure if you identify yourself as republican or perhaps you are actually part of the evangelical base yourself?

I am I guess a moderate conservative up to and including but not limited to the belief that a peraon should work their A** off for what they get and no particular group should be given special consideration or priveledge.
As far as morals I am not a Bible Thumper,so to speak, but do believe that some type of family unit is the basis of a solid society and no I am not limiting that to the "Norman Rockwell " version of the family vision.

I do like to look at history and take from the experience of our ancestors. Why not, they have already made the mistakes.
As far as my levity I suppose it is sometimes easier for me to communicate in that venue and besides I see humans as comical in their actions and I include myself in that analogy. We do some damn silly crap!
I truly believe if the Democratic party had submitted a more modereate candidate ,he would be headed to the White House ,besides I heard he threw the election because his wife thought the White House was actually just the guest house beacuse of its small size. That's a rich bitch joke.

J--I agree with this gentleman. I think that your style is very balanced. You sound like you have found peace and in that provide a certain calm to others. As they say in India: Namaste.


I certainly appreciate the kind comments. I attribute any success I have to the wonderful people in my life.
It is also said before enlightenment you must chop wood and carry water and after enlightenment chop wood and carry water. I personally take from this keep your expectations reasonable and don't take your self too seriously its a fight to the end and for those that don't appreciate the more esocertic rhetoric.
Grab life by the Ba**s and take a downhill slide!

The man who rides the american bike,
He is so quick to say,
The ride of my bike is tough and harsh,
American all the way,
The man who rides the carbon one,
He loves the ride it gives,
It's soft and lovely to his tush,
without it he cant live,
But the one who types instead of rides,
Thats a lad I can do without,
Don't listen and pay heed to him,
He's pale worn and out,
It's the man who rides his frame all day,
He would never type a lick,
I'll be there by his side today,
You can all just go to S***!

Poem written by my LBS pro,
An Irishman with an attitude.
Probably the only thing he will ever contribute to this site.
I can't stop laughing, by the way I love this website and I do
still manage to get in a lot of riding
...Hooben

The man who rides the american bike,
He is so quick to say,
The ride of my bike is tough and harsh,
American all the way,
The man who rides the carbon one,
He loves the ride it gives,
It's soft and lovely to his tush,
without it he cant live,
But the one who types instead of rides,
Thats a lad I can do without,
Don't listen and pay heed to him,
He's pale worn and out,
It's the man who rides his frame all day,
He would never type a lick,
I'll be there by his side today,
You can all just go to S***!

Poem written by my LBS pro,
An Irishman with an attitude.
Probably the only thing he will ever contribute to this site.
I can't stop laughing, by the way I love this website and I do
still manage to get in a lot of riding
...Hooben


There was a man of cycling skills, as the world had never seen
His arms and legs like tensioned springs
His torso hard and lean
He trained himself by winter night
He trained by rainy day
He rode his bike with great resolve
And past the months away
At last the time had finally come to pass the final test
He'd try his skills on race day
He knew he was the best
He rode into crowded scene with his hopes and head held high
This was the day of true reward
His strength would not deny
But when he took his entry form his hopes fell out of sight
Of all the skills he processed that day
He could not read nor write


Written this morning as I wait on breakfast and for the temp. to rise a little and then I will ride.

I agree that the ability, however great or small I am not to judge, to express oneself is developed by writing. I am wary of the one line answer, unless it is so witty and insightful (LOL)...I love the written word and think that my skills and those of my peers have been honed on boards like this....'write on'

Great observation, that this is a venue that can challenge one to read and understand or respond on various levels and be challenged to expand your skills and insight, and I use the term loosely in my case.