gyming to improve power

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Hey again franco, I know that you asked a pretty simple question...
From all the coaching material I've read, I'm going to have to disagree with all five of Ric's retorts. I know he's a moderator, and I'm not sure as to what previleges he has to the site.
It seems that the purpose of this site is to allow cycling enthusiasts to disseminate information amongst each other, and the information that has been given to me is that weight training does indeed have a place in the serious cyclist's training regimen.
Here's perhaps a more important issue with regards to this site:
There's no reason that we can't agree to disagree. :-)
(Ric, I see no purpose in your restating the claim that resistance training has no place...)
We can't argue that both philosophies do indeed exist.
Maybe, once this is accepted, we agree to belong to both sides...
The alternative is to do some research and start quoting some empirical data. Maybe even do a google search of your own, something like "cycling resistance training." Just see what pops up... take care and have fun!

Originally posted by sheppard
Hey again franco, I know that you asked a pretty simple question...
From all the coaching material I've read, I'm going to have to disagree with all five of Ric's retorts. I know he's a moderator, and I'm not sure as to what previleges he has to the site.


what have my moderating privileges got to do with anything?


It seems that the purpose of this site is to allow cycling enthusiasts to disseminate information amongst each other, and the information that has been given to me is that weight training does indeed have a place in the serious cyclist's training regimen.


i am disseminating info!

unfortnately, you've been erroneously given such information, because there is no evidence that weight training is beneficial to endurance cycling performance. in fact the evidence would be that it is detrimental.

how do i know this? i've gone through the research available on the subject, and am currently writing a research paper on this very topic.


Here's perhaps a more important issue with regards to this site:
There's no reason that we can't agree to disagree. :-)


you can disagree as much as you like :-)


The alternative is to do some research and start quoting some empirical data. Maybe even do a google search of your own, something like "cycling resistance training." Just see what pops up... take care and have fun!

if you do a Pub-Med search you won't find any evidence that weight training increases performance in endurance trained cyclists in endurance cycling events (e.g., > 90-secs) because there isn't any. For e.g., Bishop et al., (1999).

for a slightly longer overview on the subject see my article here http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern

Ric

I for one am glad Ric restates his claim that resistance training
has no place in endurance cycling over and over, because if he
hadn't i would not have had the guts to drop my winter weight
training, replace it with trainer work and have the strongest start to my season ever.
tarvy

Originally posted by menglish6
Ok, I'd like to clear a few things up in my mind (with help from those here) regarding the notion that the strength requirements of cycling (and I think I've heard the same for other sports as well) can be met by the average sedentary schmoe.


untrained, healthy, age, gender, and mass matched controls are on average as strong as elite endurance cyclists



My initial reaction to this statement is that it can't be true. But, the more I thought about it, the more sense it makes. The problem with the statement that I percieve is that it creates the false impression that lance armstrong is no stronger than joe-bag-of-doughnuts who sits on the couch all day.


cycling is a very low strength sport. it's no wonder that cyclists aren't very strong.


This was my thought process (please correct it if you find flaws). Say the power and strength requirements of a certain uphill climb at an elite speed are equivalent to doing a leg press with 150 lb in 2/3 of a second (90rpm).


at the power that e.g., Armstrong is likely to generate (~ 400 W) at 90 revs/min up a long alpine pass, the force requirements assuming 170-mm cranks is 249 Newtons (~ 25 kg between each leg).


In all likelyhood most healthy adults can do this.


this is correct


The difference is, they can't do it continuously for 20-30-60 minutes.


that is also correct


If I went into the gym and leg pressed 400lb, and then the next guy came by and leg pressed 400lb for 20 minutes, no one would try to say that we had similar strength.


strength is clearly and well-defined as the *maximal* force or tension a muscle or group of muscles can generate. Thus, doing something for 20-minutes isn't a maximal effort


Now if you go in the gym and train your muscles to be able to handle medium weights at high rates and high reps, that will have an effect on your ability to spin a slightly more difficult gear up the hill next time I'd think.


as can be seen from my example above virtually anyone can press 25 kg. you're going to have to be very small or very frail to not being able to manage this

however, with your suggestion, why not just cycle up the hills (moderate efforts, at high reps)?


I guess it would be more accurate to say that cyclists need (have) great muscle endurance rather than strength. This is definately something that can be trained at the gym though.

cyclists need the ability to generate moderate amounts of power for long periods of time. this cannot be trained in the gym. the ability to generate moderate amounts of power for long periods of time is related to your lactate threshold, VO2max, efficiency, etc. these are trained on the bike.

ric

Originally posted by tarvy
I for one am glad Ric restates his claim that resistance training
has no place in endurance cycling over and over, because if he
hadn't i would not have had the guts to drop my winter weight
training, replace it with trainer work and have the strongest start to my season ever.
tarvy

thanks tarvy, glad it's helped you.

ric

Originally posted by ricstern
thanks tarvy, glad it's helped you.

ric
Actually, I'd like to jump in here too. Until I was lucky enough to speak to both Ric and Andy C. on this subject, I was also mistaken on the subject of weight training for endurance cycling performance.
However, approaching the subject with an open mind, I have to admit that I believe they are absolutely right. There is still a lot of 'myth' in the exercise world (stretching is another hot potato at the moment), and it's thanks to people like these two (and many more) that these questions are getting answered. Just because a Friel or a Carmichael (who incidentally has no qualifications in this field at all) says it's so, doesn't make it true.
FWIW, my experience is read the research and make up your own mind. Otherwise, I tend to trust the people who have both the knowledge, and nothing whatever to gain from sharing it.

Lindsay.

Yes, this topic seems to keep bouncing back and I guess it will continue to be raised.
I already shared I'm a former bodybuilder who switched from weight-training to cycling - I'm probably not the only person on this forum who has a weight-training background.
Since I started training more seriously on the bike and dramatically reducing my weight-training I've basically lost quite a lot of weight. Most of my weight loss has been muscle since the body will drop muscle automatically when cycling at high intensity.
My own view, based on my own experiences, is that weights do increase power. For example, I now weigh some 28 pounds more than I did when I rode a bike in my twenties but I'm definitely a more powerful climber today than I was in the past. I know this is true in my case since I recently got up a monster of a hill I could never do years back when I weighed far less. Back then I was lighter but I didn't have the same power I have today.
However, I'd like to clarify one point:
I stated I believe I'm a more powerful climber than when I was far lighter but we should consider that power is only one aspect of cycling and an increase in power may arise at the expense of other qualities such as speed or endurance.
Therefore, it may be possible to choose what kind of cyclist you want to be.
The only thing that confuses me is that coaches such as Joe Friel advocate low rep power-training for cyclists in the off-season yet argue that a cyclist who pushes big cogs at slow cadence will lose form. Doesn't seem logical to me. Personally I still weight train but I use high reps (20 reps on squats). Maybe it hampers my endurance (or makes recovery more complex) but it does give me power in the hips, thighs and back.
Strangely enough, despite my weights background I tend to cycle in low gears at higher cadence than other guys who churn big cogs at lower cadence.
Incidentally, Lance Armstrong is pro weight-training. He trained with weights in Texas prior to his tour victories and states he made definite improvements in cycling performance (in his opinion). Lance's coach didn't allow him to squat or do upper body work but he did leg-presses and other leg exercises or back work.




Originally posted by franco1
I've started gyming, hoping it will help with improve my power on the bike.

Do I need to do heavy weights or high repition to improve my strength. Also what worries me is the fact that I'm putting on muscle weight.

Originally posted by ricstern
if you're an endurance racing cyclist (e.g., RR, TT, MTB, XC, Track endurance, etc) it's a waste of time (unless you've just started exercise and cycling). Lots of threads on this!!

ric

I know theyre basically the same as doing light weights but would wall sits be benificial. I'm a bit of an allrounder as I'm still u19 but I'm leaning towards kilo's and scratch races. Hope you can answer that

Originally posted by rayner
I know theyre basically the same as doing light weights but would wall sits be benificial. I'm a bit of an allrounder as I'm still u19 but I'm leaning towards kilo's and scratch races. Hope you can answer that

kilo and 200-m match track sprints (and Olympic sprints, and a couple other discliplines) are where weights *are* needed. you do need to be strong and develop a lot of force for those.

i wouldn't have thought wall sits would be useful, though.

ric

Incidentally, Lance Armstrong is pro weight-training. He trained with weights in Texas prior to his tour victories and states he made definite improvements in cycling performance (in his opinion). Lance's coach didn't allow him to squat or do upper body work but he did leg-presses and other leg exercises or back work.

You just don't know this. You can't. Lance's book doesn't tell you how Lance trains. Why would it? And his opinion is worth 3/10 of not very much - he's an athlete not a sports scientist. Other factors are just as likely to have improved his performance.

Finally, the improvements you've observed are likely to be from a higher VO2max and LT rather than strength gains, unless the monster hill is about 200m long.

I sometimes wonder whether it would be possible to develop your potential in both sports on the basis of periodisation cycles. I'm only raising the issue seeing as my own training program has become so weird lately, due to necessity.
Not too long ago I quit serious weight-training to focus on cycling. At the start of my cycling training I was pretty unfit but certainly very strong. However, as I rapidly began to drop muscle by cycling, my aerobic conditioning improved dramatically (while my strength in both squats and upper body diminished). In short, my body adapted to the new load placed upon it.
Unfortunately, having reached a real peak in cycling I find myself injured and may well be out of cycling for the rest of the season till my muscle tear heals. Seems like the only logical thing to do is resume weight-training rather than loaf about the house bewailing my fate.
Here it gets weirder. Having resumed weight training I'm piling weight back on my frame since muscle has memory. I'm hoping that the heavy squats e.t.c. will speed up the healing of the tear around my knee as well. But I wonder what will happen when I resume cycling? Will the progress I made on my bike be recovered just as quickly?
That kind of makes me wonder whether it might be possible for somebody to lift heavy in Winter and ride like lightning in Summer?
If I had a choice I'd still be churning out miles in the Summer but sadly I think it will take quite some time till my leg injury mends and I can still get away with squats (although not leg-curls).



Originally posted by Doctor Morbius
Direct quote from article (reprinted without permission)...

"The initial study on the compatibility of weight training and aerobic conditioning surprised a few people. Hickson and colleagues from the University of Chicago studied the impact of adding heavy resistance training to increase leg strength in eight running and cycling trained subjects who had already been training for several years. Strength training was performed for 3 days per week for 10 weeks, while all subjects continued their normal endurance training."

Also, in the book The Lance Armstrong Performance Program, Chapter 10, page 100 outlines a weight lifting routing used by Lance Armstrong . Here's a quote from page 111 under the section "What would Lance do?" ...

"By late winter, after I've been lifting steadily for 3 months, here's what I can do."

Leg press: 400 pounds
Hamstring curl: 80 pounds
Leg extension: 120 pounds
Biceps curl: 50 pounds
Abdominal crunches: 200 pounds per set
Bench press: 125 pounds

Ric, I'm not trying to argue with you but why would Charmichael have Armstrong do this? He certainly wasn't an untrained cyclist at the time this book was written.

Originally posted by Carrera
I sometimes wonder whether it would be possible to develop your potential in both sports on the basis of periodisation cycles. I'm only raising the issue seeing as my own training program has become so weird lately, due to necessity. That would be kind of cool, but I don't think it's possible. I don't see how anyone could be both a great cyclist and a great bodybuilder or powerlifter. They just seem at such odds with each other.

I have no doubt that - to an extent - they can compliment each other. However, the goals of being good or excellent at both are at opposite extremes of the scale. The weight and size, especially in the upper body, would definitely be a hinderance in pro cycling. It would just be more weight to carry that wouldn't be a part of the engine, so to speak. Some additional leg size/strength at least could be helpful in powering the cranks.

By the way, I'm sorry to hear about your injury. I hope that the squat routine does more to help than to harm. I usually have to lay off an area completely that has been injured. However, YES you are better off to train with weights than to sit around the house watching TV and eating potato chips! Been there, done that!

During the winter months I usually hit the weights and cut way back on the cycling (last winter I prefered the stair climber to cycling just to break up the monotony). I still wear my HRM and do quick supersets between larger muscle groups. I can get PLENTY of cardio work this way. The only downside is I need much more recovery time when lifting than cycling so I can't put the hours in that I could in the summer when mostly cycling.

Within a couple weeks back on the bike I was able to pick up right where I left off the previous fall. I'm certain that if I were to have done indoor cycling on a trainer I would have done much better. Also, a competitive cyclist doesn't need 19" biceps. I guess I don't either but I like having them. Going to shoot for 20" by next spring after about 6 months of winter lifting. Also plan on hitting the quads and hams hard as I should have plenty of new additional blood vessles in the area to help blood flow. It should be quite fun!

Originally posted by Doctor Morbius
I have no doubt that - to an extent - they can compliment each other. However, the goals of being good or excellent at both are at opposite extremes of the scale. The weight and size, especially in the upper body, would definitely be a hinderance in pro cycling. It would just be more weight to carry that wouldn't be a part of the engine, so to speak. Some additional leg size/strength at least could be helpful in powering the cranks.


This just isn't true, unless you have a functional disability or are e.g., a frail old lady. the force requirements are low to moderate in endurance cycle racing, such that virtually anyone can meet them.

elite endurance cyclists are, on average, no stronger than untrained, sedentary, healthy, age, gender and mass-matched controls.

the average force requirement of *both* legs over each pedal rev can generally be met by anyone. for e.g., approximately, the force required for the *top 5 riders* in the recent Mont Ventoux mountain TT would have been ~ 250 Newtons (or 25 kg). Pretty much anyone can generate that. Obviously, sustaining that for the hour long period is a totally different matter -- but, that's not a strength issue, but to do with the factors that affect endurance performance, such as VO2max, and LT.

ric

Ric, do you ever feel like you're going round in circles? (I'm not talking about riding a crit)

would that be like a power crank circle where i pull up on the recovery stroke !!!!!!

ric

Yep, but it also bears some similarity to the circle described when you circuit train at the local gym.

i'll be going round in circles in a crit tomorrow!

"By the way, I'm sorry to hear about your injury. I hope that the squat routine does more to help than to harm. I usually have to lay off an area completely that has been injured."

I think there just may be some light at the end of the tunnel but I had been feeling pretty fed-up as a result of the injury. Just before the injury caught me by surprise I had raced up a large hill with another rider and led all the way - which made me feel really good about things. I've had injuries that took 8 months to heal (such as rotator-cuff tears). However, now I suspect I may be over this cycling injury very soon.

Don't know about you but I always find there's a period of injury followed by rest. During the rest and healing period the injured area feels weaker and generally worse. Then you need expert timing to start challenging the area with resistance work. If you're lucky, the area will strengthen and you're back in business. I thought I would be out of action all Summer but now I think it may only take a very short time (possibly days)

I know this may sound odd but I really believe my main problem this Summer has been hayfever. I'm a chronic sufferer and my symptoms go way beyond the norm. I get fever, joint pains, itchy eyes, blocked respiration e.t.c. Then, riding way out amongst trees and shrubs gets you in the thick of your allergy as you breathe lungfulls of pollen. The physical onslaught caused by the allergy makes a sufferer more likely to get injured during Summer.

As for the weights, I'm lucky in a sense. I'm one of those rare individuals that can shed muscle easily. I could get on my bike weighing 200 lbs and be down to 170 lbs within no time at all. I can lose muscle easily but losing fat is far more difficult.




Originally posted by Doctor Morbius
That would be kind of cool, but I don't think it's possible. I don't see how anyone could be both a great cyclist and a great bodybuilder or powerlifter. They just seem at such odds with each other.

I have no doubt that - to an extent - they can compliment each other. However, the goals of being good or excellent at both are at opposite extremes of the scale. The weight and size, especially in the upper body, would definitely be a hinderance in pro cycling. It would just be more weight to carry that wouldn't be a part of the engine, so to speak. Some additional leg size/strength at least could be helpful in powering the cranks.

By the way, I'm sorry to hear about your injury. I hope that the squat routine does more to help than to harm. I usually have to lay off an area completely that has been injured. However, YES you are better off to train with weights than to sit around the house watching TV and eating potato chips! Been there, done that!

During the winter months I usually hit the weights and cut way back on the cycling (last winter I prefered the stair climber to cycling just to break up the monotony). I still wear my HRM and do quick supersets between larger muscle groups. I can get PLENTY of cardio work this way. The only downside is I need much more recovery time when lifting than cycling so I can't put the hours in that I could in the summer when mostly cycling.

Within a couple weeks back on the bike I was able to pick up right where I left off the previous fall. I'm certain that if I were to have done indoor cycling on a trainer I would have done much better. Also, a competitive cyclist doesn't need 19" biceps. I guess I don't either but I like having them. Going to shoot for 20" by next spring after about 6 months of winter lifting. Also plan on hitting the quads and hams hard as I should have plenty of new additional blood vessles in the area to help blood flow. It should be quite fun!

Originally posted by Carrera
I sometimes wonder whether it would be possible to develop your potential in both sports on the basis of periodisation cycles. I'm only raising the issue seeing as my own training program has become so weird lately, due to necessity.
...
That kind of makes me wonder whether it might be possible for somebody to lift heavy in Winter and ride like lightning in Summer?
If I had a choice I'd still be churning out miles in the Summer but sadly I think it will take quite some time till my leg injury mends and I can still get away with squats (although not leg-curls).

I'll let you know how trying to be decent in two opposing activities works out. I recently started training for cycle oregon (4-500 miles in 7 days), the first real cycling training I've ever done. Within a matter of weeks of starting to do longer rides my strength in some of the basic weight exercises I do (bench, clean, squat, pullups and deadlifts) had plummeted. So had my rowing. So now I'm trying to see if I can improve (or at least maintain) in three areas, rowing, cycling and weight training. Its turning out to be extremely difficult. I think that the long rides eat away at ones muscles and make it real difficult to maintain strength (I heard in longer rides you could get from 5-10% of your calories from protein). We'll see how well I can fight it.

Originally posted by ricstern
i'll be going round in circles in a crit tomorrow!

Good luck!